Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 2

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5546841-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-follow-on-from-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

<suddenly looks really busy, refuses to make eye contact>

Not me but excellent cut and pasting from you today.

💐

ST: I don't have a laptop, only a phone

convenient.
Now when NC asks Q about the (%%@@£#&&) spreadsheet, he can say ' I don't recall'

I liked the question the Judge asked, sounds like he's following the line of reason that NC is trying to illustrate.

He’s the very embodiment of the expression:

I am strong-minded
You are obstinate
He is pig-headed

And everybody has/had a mother, and all mothers will have menstruated, so everybody should be allowed join a menstruation group..

Is there someone else who can c&p tomorrow?

I don't have a laptop, only a phone

😂

Given how much head space this has taken up over so long I'm surprised he needs to check anything. You'd think by now he'd know it all by heart.

We'd be three weeks in and still on NC questioning ST

I can until about 3pm.

Just think, ST gets to have all eyes on him and his existence for three whole weeks! Think of the egophoria!

Thank you for today's proceedings and discussions, wims; as always, much obliged.

I think he likes being perpetually offended. Being sanctimoniously outraged can be an appealing emotion for some. Provides a purpose and meaning in a life that otherwise lacks meaning. Many GI’s seem to seek a dopamine rush of virtuous outrage. Look at them come on FWR to shout their hyperbole. The very place you’d think they wish to avoid but serves as their Two Minutes Hate. Orwell said its purpose by BB was to emotionally involve the audience while ensuring the absence of critical thought. Seems apt.

Surely it's perfectly possible to view a spreadsheet on a mobe, even if not ideal?

I mean, before one of our resident scolds comes along, we should admit that our side isn't devoid of those emotions!

I have a headache, I have no idea how Judges, panels and legal teams hold their concentration for so long.

I have to say, I think the judge has the measure of the claimant from his clarifying questions and direct dictation of the craziness claimants statements. Wherever the judge sits on the GC/GI debate (to use NC's terms), I think the judge has sufficient evidence in front of him to come to the same conclusion as the rest of us on ST's credibility and reasonableness. Judge also sounds more gentle with ST - maybe Judge has now realised the level of "vulnerability" going on and is just trying to get through ST's evidence as soon as possible. Could explain his musing about NC "covering the same ground" as AL. Is this lawyer speak for "yes you've made your point, you're never going to get a straight answer from this witness so lets move on"?

Towards the end of NC's questions, when she was trying to get the Claimant to point to the hurty words in EDW's infamous post, ST was also getting very much into paranoia - "EDW is out to get trans people and wants to go around gratuitously misgendering them all the time." I wonder how much HH will try and row back in re-examination?

Aw darn it! Storytime with Naomi Cunningham was postponed! I was really looking forward to that!

(I hav given 6 copies as gifts so far. It's a lovely little book)

Well I think NC has successfully demonstrated that (Vicky Pollard) can not be reasoned with and that GI is so extreme in its manifestations, that there could never be no room for an opposing view to be expressed.

Thus whatever the employer did it could never resolve his complaints without banning SEEN. Which of course they cannot do.

Archive version: https://archive.ph/I2Cxa

@fanOfBen Thank you for the c&p! I'm not on Twix, so can't help tomorrow, I'm afraid.

I'm baffled that a case has gone in front of a judge with the complainant openly saying there's no evidence or proof, just what he says happens in his head.

serves as their Two Minutes Hate.

I never thought of it like that before, makes sense!

Ahead of story time tomorrow lets remember the sheer horror this book visited on our dear Tinkerbell:

For example, on 12 July, Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley shared suggestions for children’s books ‘from the brilliant website Transgender Trend’ [1047]. These books are not sources of celebration but sources of invalidation of trans identity. SEEN accuse trans people of indoctrination then advertise books like these for children at work. It made me worry that a child who may ultimately be transgender reading these would be told that their internal sense of self is
wrong, a mistake, and something to be suppressed. It is pertinent to me
because that is the message I received too, that I should have continued
pretending to be someone I wasn’t because it is more palatable.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19X8j5Xls6HtlzzjLIqjjX2jMy6CJhc12/view?pli=1 page 24

Hes so kind to worry about women on the menopause, supporting women who breastfeed and men who want children to suck their nipples and is sitting worried about children who want to assert a trans identity. He is just thinking of others.

Oh no, '... it's all in your head' - now I have a Gorillaz ear worm

Do I remember correctly that they all (parties and judge) agreed that various documents, beyond what we have already - e.g. the list of issues - could be made public? AFAICS we don't have any of that yet, but if anyone knows differently please say. It was left to the parties to arrange actually making those things available, and I imagine they may be a bit busy...

Thank you all, especially the diligent cut-and-pasters, also the explainers and observers and humourists!

And while we're breaking here's an alternately charming and enraging interview with Rachel Rooney from the "Women Are Real" US podcast series https://open.spotify.com/episode/6Tz8X3mrKeSjoi9PN9GQXm

I could only find it on Spotify or Apple but hopefully it will play through a web browser.