Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 2

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5546841-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-follow-on-from-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

If you have to imagine you have a gender different to your biologically sexed body that's a you problem - and all your wailing about not being validated in your imaginations - yep, that's still a you problem.

From TT:

ST: Disagree. Colleagues have been told not to say it. There's an email from EDW demanding erasure of TW from sport. p411

NC: What is she requesting?
ST: That trans ppl in sport should not be mentioned in perpetuity again by the business. p1411.

NC: Which part of this do you say is asking that you not express gender ideology beliefs?
ST: [reading ]

My note: we seem to have a natural break at this point!

Whatever is convenient in that moment. I don't think anything existing that isn't entirely about and for the C is permissable.

In much the same way as menopause is merely anyone of any sex feeling a bit hot and brain foggy.

ST: Not ideology - my existence.

It is not your existence that is the ideology, it is your idea about your existence that is the ideology

Here is the Archive version

https://archive.ph/I2Cxa

I'm just wondering, why would EDW demand that TW in sport never be mentioned by DEFRA, that seems an odd request?

From TT:

ST: Sorry - p1417: [reads aloud - para is about withdrawal of several presentations re sport participation, I think]

NC: If you read previous paragraph - this is a long email -
ST: yes
NC: It's about changes proposed by John Calvert to a SEEN blog. Starts (p1414) thanks JC for comments and explanations. Complains of unfair scrutiny imposed on SEEN & that other protected beliefs not subject to same.

NC: Then goes on to discuss proposed amendments - various colours used for changed, suggestions etc. That is the context for p1417.
ST: Yes

NC: Proposed change to a reference to sport participation, notes that there has been much contested discussion. It's true that SEEN is being closely scrutinised by high level managers?

Is it going to turn out demanding erasure of TW from sport = "men shouldn't be in women's sports"

??

Finally popped up on Reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1ujof9r/anyone_been_following_the_tempest_v_defra_tribunal/

I'm looking forward to telling DP when he gets back that last week, when he came home from work in the heatwave all foggy and hot having spent hours in a glass box at over 40 degrees (forklift cab) , that he was in fact suffering from the menopause.

If you can only exist in your own mind if everyone creates an uninterrupted fiction around you, then this is also very much a 'you' problem. Someone's existential crises is nothing to do with other people.

He is oblivious that he's insisting any interruption of his beliefs is intolerable infringement of his rights while doing precisely this to others and expecting this to be sympathised with.

We are still dealing with toddlers. Trouble is, they are now big, beefy, middle-aged blokes.

ST: There's an email from EDW demanding erasure of TW from sport. p411

No, just the exclusion of males from female categories.

I thought you were married to that weird magician for a moment.

ETA apology for marrying you off!

I don't think he is a well man.

Ahaha, I'll tell him that too!

Maybe she’s his Support Gonk. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Thank you @NowSober

From TT:

ST: Yes unusual for senior ppl to help out in that way.
NC: Er - SEEN have said they want to talk about sport, are being asked not to mention it as divisive. Is that not unreasonable? Why not talk about sport?
ST: Not unreasonable, no, business can limit speech in workplace.

ST: My point is that SEEN go on to say that in return TW must not play sport?
NC: Not what it says; it asks that all other presentations be censored in the same way as theirs. In context, perfectly fair isn't it?

ST: Not reasonable to say that in return for one word, TW must be erased from all sport. Email also shows SEEN willing to adjust message in all ways to succeed in their aim of getting published. Just how far they will go to get message out.

My note: huh?

Oooh. That's clever.

ST: My point is that SEEN go on to say that in return TW must not play sport?

No, they aren't!

I've only been able to find TERF live updates unfortunately

The TERF blogs are very hard reading, almost as if not in English
😀
Ní fheadair cad tá ar súil le mo dhuine, tá an Béarla go líofa againn go léir😁

On that Reddit thread, the only one with any legal sense thinks Tempest doesn't understand Forstater. I agree with him.

😂😂😂Superb!

Email also shows SEEN willing to adjust message in all ways to succeed in their aim of getting published.

Oh my goodness. It's those spitefully law-abiding women again.