Tempest v Rural Payments Agency Tribunal Thread 2

[myladydisdainisyetliving]

Previous thread: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5546841-tempest-v-rural-payments-agency-tribunal-thread-follow-on-from-chair-of-seen-is-being-sued

TT substack: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/tempest-vs-defra-and-rural-payments

Tempest (a TW) is claiming discrimination, harassment and/or victimisation on grounds of gender reassignment. Central to the claim is the existence of the Sex Equality and Equity Network in the Civil Service (SEEN). SEEN has been granted right to intervene. Parts of the original claim against the co-chair of SEEN (Elspeth Duemmer-Wrigley) and another party (Andreas Mueller) were struck out or narrowed. Another claimant, PQ, is no longer part of the case.

I will also note that Elspeth still has a garden in need of seeds and water to support the ability of SEEN to be an intervenor in this case. The claim originated because she said "only women menstruate" and a search with her name and those terms at the usual gardening website should point you to her plot.

ST is wary. He has no idea yet where NC is going with this, or what impact the next thing he says will have. I should imagine he is either slightly terrified (having heard of her reputation) or overconfident.

From TT:

NC: p546 (int)
NC: Post in SEEN network by EDW - says look forward to world without sex stereotypes, where boys and girls can achieve what they want to do. Shares resources on challenging sex stereotypes?

ST: Um - no.

NC: How do you characterise.
ST: Have said before. These posts have veneer of respectability and neutrality, but in fact, like other posts, delegitimises gender identity.

NC: Do you agree that on its face, the post is sharing resources challenging sexist stereotypes?
ST: Don't think it challenges anything, it's just a statement.

NC: What is it in that post makes you think it delegitimises gender identity?
ST: It's dealing in gender expression, saying a man can wear a dress and have long hair and still be a man, that is not my lived experiences of gender identity.

My note: Aha!

I think Naomi is executing Operation Let Them Speak. So far her tone is very even and polite. Claimant is still avoiding answering the questions and making speeches.

So ST’s take is that unless anything about women includes transwomen, it is not about women? And because SEEN is sex-realist, when they say women they mean women not including transwomen, and so by ST’s reasoning every time they say women it isn’t about women really???

NC: How do you characterise.
ST: Have said before. These posts have veneer of respectability and neutrality, but in fact, like other posts, delegitimises gender identity.

Back to I know it says x but I know they really mean they hate me and want me to no longer exist and that I'm crazy and mentally ill and and and...

Mantram incoming in three two one...

I love her calm questioning demeanour, especially when she is heavily challenging the witness.

From TT:

ST: Offensive to say I am cosplaying women. I am a woman.

NC: Are you saying it's not possible to have long hair and wear a dress and be a man?
ST: Yes
NC: Some men do?
ST: yes
NC: Are you delegitimising their lived experience?
ST: No.

NC: You say this post has a hidden meaning that delegitmises trans ppl
ST: Yes

And it's not about him, which is, I suspect, where this is genuinely coming from.

Erm , has he just admitted that sex stereotypes are necessary to legitimise trans identities?

He must be feeling angry with her by now.

Yep, and yet again.

NC: How do you characterise.
ST: Have said before. These posts have veneer of respectability and neutrality, but in fact, like other posts, delegitimises gender identity.

'The evidence I'm imagining completely backs up my position'

rom TT:
ST: Offensive to say I am cosplaying women. I am a woman.
NC: Are you saying it's not possible to have long hair and wear a dress and be a man?
ST: Yes
NC: Some men do?
ST: yes
NC: Are you delegitimising their lived experience?
ST: No.
NC: You say this post has a hidden meaning that delegitmises trans ppl
ST: Yes

I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto🙄

ST: Offensive to say I am cosplaying women. I am a woman.

NC: Are you saying it's not possible to have long hair and wear a dress and be a man?
ST: Yes

ST is sexist. Well, I am shocked!

NC: Are you saying it's not possible to have long hair and wear a dress and be a man?
ST: Yes

so you can’t have long hair, wear a dress and be a man? Just thinking about Harry Styles or Catholic priests…

NC: Some men do?
ST: yes

But this is a contradiction of your previous answer.

NC: Are you delegitimising their lived experience?
ST: No.

he is going to get tied up in knots…

From TT:

NC: You said you were removed from many groups to avoid upset
ST: Yes
NC: You said that SEEN still posted in menopause and breastfeeding groups. Are you saying those are not to do with sex?

ST: Up to them what they post.
NC: Not up to you?
ST: No

NC: Did you join those groups.
ST: Looked at them yes
[missed - re TM also involved]

NC: But you cannot say those issues are nothing to do with sex?
ST: So say menopause, SEEN will have a position / interest from PoV of sex, but they rigidly stick to it, so other ppl there - say TM and TW with legit interest, they are being told they are not part of group

Totally! Who'd have thunk it.

NC: Did you join those groups.
ST: Looked at them yes

Of course you did, would be shocked at this point if you hadn't mate!

Well of course he is, how else are we to know his hefty male self is a woman without his dress?

I'm watching cricket in a round necked t shirt and shorts today, so I'm a man then, according to ST.

Didn't ED recently sit behind NC and it looked like she may have taken pictures of of NC's laptop screen? Phone flashing and all that?

I would bet ST's left bollock that a transman has ever complained about the menopause or breastfeeding group.

Why would TIMs have a “legitimate interest” in a menopause group?

From TT:

ST: And often they are only posting about SEEN network, which is nothing to do with menopause. Just trying to recruit members.

NC: The menopause group is nothing to with trans identify men - transwomen. They don't go through menopause.
ST: Not accurate. We may have loved ones that do.

ST: And when you have gender surgery and stop taking hormones you get hot flushes and brain fog, so yes TW belong.

NC: Menopause is the cessation of ovulation
ST: Main group yes
NC: Men never ovulate, so they never stop.
ST: Agree TW don't ovulate.
NC: So don't go through menopause
ST: Well if you define it like that, but I have described my experenience of menopause symptoms.