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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Talking to non GC people

516 replies

Sausagenbacon · 05/01/2026 08:13

I've been chatting to a few people recently about gender issues, and their opinion runs roughly like this ' we should all listen to each other, and not be so unpleasant. But of course, men shouldn't be in women's sports'
Which begs the question that, if GC people hadn't been 'unpleasant' men would have been firmly in women's sports.
So, should I be pleased that public opinion has shifted slightly, or should I be banging my head against the wall?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:12

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/01/2026 21:09

To be clear, do you classify women who do not believe trans women to be women as "haters"?

Is the simple act of telling a person who claims to be the same as you that you consider the factors they assess as significant commonalities to be far less significant to your lived experience than the factors they assess as insignificant diiferences, by defintion an act of hate rather than simply telling the truth?

Is it, in short, an act of hate not to allow someone else to tell you who you are and how you should understand your own needs, risks and experiences?

Edited

I posted on the wrong thread! I thought I was writing on the thread Should we be polite to racists, genocide supporters, anti semites and Nazis?

Sorry!!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2026 22:13

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:11

I posted on the wrong thread! I thought I was writing on the thread Should we be polite to racists, genocide supporters, anti semites and Nazis?

Sorry!!

Interesting that you mentioned “trans people” in your posts then.

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:13

Seethlaw · 07/01/2026 20:42

@SoftBalletShoes

You do realise OP is asking how to talk to non-GC people from a GC perspective, right? Not the other way around...

I posted on the wrong thread! I thought I was writing on the thread Should we be polite to racists, genocide supporters, anti semites and Nazis?

Sorry!!

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:14

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2026 22:13

Interesting that you mentioned “trans people” in your posts then.

Because they are a minority group like the others.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/01/2026 22:14

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:11

I posted on the wrong thread! I thought I was writing on the thread Should we be polite to racists, genocide supporters, anti semites and Nazis?

Sorry!!

I notice you didn't include sexists in your naughty list - no surprise there!

I personally don't think we should condone racism, genocide, anti semitism, Nazism or sexism. The last one is why I am a gender critical feminist.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2026 22:15

So you don’t think women are bigots just because they don’t believe in gender identity ideology then?

HildegardP · 07/01/2026 22:16

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:13

I posted on the wrong thread! I thought I was writing on the thread Should we be polite to racists, genocide supporters, anti semites and Nazis?

Sorry!!

You can ask MNHQ to delete your original post & spare yourself having to continually paste the same reply.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2026 22:17

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/01/2026 22:14

I notice you didn't include sexists in your naughty list - no surprise there!

I personally don't think we should condone racism, genocide, anti semitism, Nazism or sexism. The last one is why I am a gender critical feminist.

Yes, I noticed that omission as well.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/01/2026 22:17

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:14

Because they are a minority group like the others.

Sexists are sadly not that much of a minority, though I acknowledge the ones who express their sexism by acting out their stereotypes of the opposite sex are less common than the ones who simply treat other people as stereotypes.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/01/2026 22:19

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:12

I posted on the wrong thread! I thought I was writing on the thread Should we be polite to racists, genocide supporters, anti semites and Nazis?

Sorry!!

Oh dear, and so you ended up appearing to support sexism! How embarassing for you!

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:35

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/01/2026 22:19

Oh dear, and so you ended up appearing to support sexism! How embarassing for you!

Of course I denounce sexism in the strongest possible terms. I started to put it on the list but deleted it because I was talking about calling out hate when I feel safe to do so, and I don't generally feel safe starting an argument with a sexist man. Also because we were talking about minorities, and women aren't a minority.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2026 22:37

Maaaate.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 07/01/2026 22:41

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2026 22:37

Maaaate.

The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one…

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/01/2026 22:46

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:35

Of course I denounce sexism in the strongest possible terms. I started to put it on the list but deleted it because I was talking about calling out hate when I feel safe to do so, and I don't generally feel safe starting an argument with a sexist man. Also because we were talking about minorities, and women aren't a minority.

Believing in trans identies is sexist though. You can only believe that trans women are women (or that trans men are men) if you believe that some ways of thinking are "man ways" and other ways of thinking are "woman ways" and so it is possible to have the wrong type of mind for your body.

Also, you should stop thinking in terms of minorities and start thinking in terms of marginalised. There are many examples of a powerful minority oppressing a less powerful majority - Apartheid, colonial rule, class oppression...

BettyBooper · 07/01/2026 22:54

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:14

Because they are a minority group like the others.

Men are not a minority group.

Just because some of them say (falsely) that they are women does not negate this fact.

5128gap · 07/01/2026 23:01

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 20:21

OP, to answer your question, if it's safe to do so, I do sometimes call out despicable hate, prejudice, and ignorance, whether it's racism, anti-Semitism, or trans hate. It's generally a waste of time since bigots never change and are generally wedded to their hatred, but still, there are times I find their views so repulsive that I have to do it. They generally blow their tops at being called out and will weaponise anything to tear you down, including lying about what's written in black and white, hoping that others won't read the actual exchange, and including lying about anything and everything.

It's noticeable how they don't engage with what you're saying at all, they simply attack you personally and are, cringingly, very quick to lose control. Which is not only an ineffective tactic but makes them look really thick. They sometimes remind me of the people on Jerry Springer. 🤣 I don't find this with intelligent, educated people. They tend to have a much better handle on themselves and they respond to the content. You can always tell a bigot because they respond to polite discourse by frothing at the mouth and going nuts. I guess they thin they should be able to hate minorities freely and others should just nod along with their disgusting far-right attitudes.

Hate of any kind is unacceptable. Many people are into power, control, and are unfulfilled abusers, basically. But the saddest thing of all is that often, it's themselves they hate.

Happy people don't hate others.

As long as I live, I'll never understand why some people despise others who are simply going about their lives and doing no harm to them whatsoever.

You want to see GC people as a stereotype, thrown in with the far right, the intolerant, the ignorant, the hate filled. Because that makes it easy to dismiss anything they say, even when now and again, something might just seem to have a logic to it, and might actually cause you to pause and think.
Its more comfortable to divide the world into the good guys and the bad guys and allie with the ones youve chosen as good guys, unconditionally, because you align on most everything else.
But you're mistaken here. I'm far left politically. I'm the stereotype EDI, IP supporting, 'woke', social justice warrior type that gets laughed at and called a snowflake. I expect you and I would agree on far more than we'd disagree on.
But I don't believe men are women, or ever can be. Whatever they feel, whatever lengths they go to, they are men. And so they can't be treated as women. Not in sport, not in prisons, not in toilets. Not at all. Because I care about social justice for women, and I can't justify giving women's rights away to men.
If that makes me a frothing hater, in your eyes, that's too bad.

ScathingAngelAgrona · 07/01/2026 23:37

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:11

I posted on the wrong thread! I thought I was writing on the thread Should we be polite to racists, genocide supporters, anti semites and Nazis?

Sorry!!

No such thread exists on Mumsnet.

Why am I not surprised?

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 23:44

ScathingAngelAgrona · 07/01/2026 23:37

No such thread exists on Mumsnet.

Why am I not surprised?

No such thread exists? It's right here.

Should have gone to Specsavers! 🤣🤣🤣

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/amibeingunreasonable/5472015-should-we-be-polite-to-racists-genocide-supporters-anti-semites-and-nazis

Heggettypeg · 07/01/2026 23:48

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 23:44

Edited

I'm getting Error 404 when I click on that link.

BettyBooper · 07/01/2026 23:51

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 23:44

Edited

Oh so you are laughing and saying should have gone to Specsavers?

Good to know...

ScathingAngelAgrona · 07/01/2026 23:55

Heggettypeg · 07/01/2026 23:48

I'm getting Error 404 when I click on that link.

Me too.

Funny that.

Enough4me · 07/01/2026 23:59

Men in dresses aren't a minority group. They're just playing a dressing up game and at any point they can say that they are male and be believed because... they are male.

ScathingAngelAgrona · 08/01/2026 00:03

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 23:44

Edited

Apologies. The thread does exist.

SoftBalletShoes · 08/01/2026 00:05

5128gap · 07/01/2026 23:01

You want to see GC people as a stereotype, thrown in with the far right, the intolerant, the ignorant, the hate filled. Because that makes it easy to dismiss anything they say, even when now and again, something might just seem to have a logic to it, and might actually cause you to pause and think.
Its more comfortable to divide the world into the good guys and the bad guys and allie with the ones youve chosen as good guys, unconditionally, because you align on most everything else.
But you're mistaken here. I'm far left politically. I'm the stereotype EDI, IP supporting, 'woke', social justice warrior type that gets laughed at and called a snowflake. I expect you and I would agree on far more than we'd disagree on.
But I don't believe men are women, or ever can be. Whatever they feel, whatever lengths they go to, they are men. And so they can't be treated as women. Not in sport, not in prisons, not in toilets. Not at all. Because I care about social justice for women, and I can't justify giving women's rights away to men.
If that makes me a frothing hater, in your eyes, that's too bad.

I agree that trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's sports and I also think that only TW who have transitioned socially and medically (via hormones if not surgery) should be allowed in loos and changing rooms. I do not agree with self-ID and I think that a completed transition should be required to get a GC. By that I mostly mean a completed hormonal and social transition. Doesn't have to be surgery.

The GC lobby won't have it, but the hormone treatment turns men effectively into women for all practical purposes like safety. It dampens sex drive and gets rid of much muscle, replacing it with fat. (This is according to the "Feminising Therapy" page of The Mayo Clinic, which is the world's no. 1 hospital.)

I do NOT want to share sports or women-only spaces with big hairy regular men. However, I do not perceive any threat from the transitioned women whose photos I'm posting below as examples. They're post-hormones and I would never in a million years know that they were born men. To me, TW like this are as good as women when it comes to deciding who gets to use single spaces.

Where the hate comes in is this: The anti-trans lobby would NOT accept the women below in loos and changing rooms. They would tell them to use the men's, where they would be vulnerable to assault by regular men. I cannot imagine feeling threatened by the women posted below, and you wouldn't have a clue that they had been born men anyway.

Regular men shouldn't be allowed in women's spaces. The TW posted below are not regular men, and to tell them to go to men-only spaces is, in my view, hate. I mean just look at them - it's ridiculous to treat them like regular men and to view them in the same way as regular men.

They are genuine trans women. No bad actor would take all the hormones and make himself look so feminine and have a mastectomy and grow his hair and look SO much like a biological woman simply for the purposes of using the women's loos and changing rooms! To be against TW such as these is hate imo, but it's not hate to want to keep out regular men who want to self-ID into women's spaces.

This is a common sense viewpoint - no to non-transitioned men but yes to TW who are post-transition - but again, the anti-trans lobby won't have it. They are very authoritarian and want to send women like the ones in the photos below back to the men's spaces, and some of them, when you put forward this distinction, attack you for not being as intolerant and extreme as them.

Talking to non GC people
Talking to non GC people