Talking to non GC people

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I've been chatting to a few people recently about gender issues, and their opinion runs roughly like this ' we should all listen to each other, and not be so unpleasant. But of course, men shouldn't be in women's sports'
Which begs the question that, if GC people hadn't been 'unpleasant' men would have been firmly in women's sports.
So, should I be pleased that public opinion has shifted slightly, or should I be banging my head against the wall?

Most men I know are GC but as the issue affects them less they want to keep their head down and ignore. They have less skin in the game really.
I would say the same for some women who don’t socialise with a wide range of people. For example if you don’t have children & don’t have contact with teenagers much you don’t realise how crazy some things are in some social groups

so In summary I still bang my head against the wall

I tend to ask them to explain how women have been unpleasant and then ask them what they think about the death and rape threats and the abuse from TRAs against GC women.
They always give some version of thats bad but it's just the activists not all trans people, so i ask why they dont speak out about the activists and the actions by saying not in my name.
Most dont have answers and I dont expect them to, about half end up turning full gc after doing some research
It's a slow process but the general public are slowly peaking, think of it this way 5 years ago only evil terfs were saying no men in women's spaces or sports, yet now even the be kind brigade are saying no men in women's sports and spaces. Which is a massive improvement

My experience is that most people are at best completely oblivious about it all or at worse like nodding dogs re: how awful and bigoted JK Rowling is and we should just be more kind and tolerant for the poor transgender folks (or, I don’t care who is in the loo with me so not sure what the fuss is about)

At best most people are a bit 🤨 about men in women’s sports or prisons but it is just like they are only half way there and appear to have the idea of “real” trans women and “fake” ones - with the fake ones being bad actors but shouldn’t tarr everyone with the same brush etc.

Takes time and effort to get most people to think more deeply or critically about what gender identity stuff actually means in terms of society, culture, safeguarding, women’s rights…..This is not me being patronising- it does take effort to understand the full ramifications. Which is why sport and prisons are good examples to use to help in any convo.

Just get comfortable with their discomfort when you say the things they are too afraid to.

Courage calls.

I had a conversation last week where a woman was sitting she couldn’t understand why other women were bothered about men in the women’s toilets because she had been to a drag show and the artists were in the women’s toilets and it was all a part of the fun. I couldn’t get her to understand that some great big bloke in the toilets down the corridor at the motorway service station might not be such fun. Apparently that ‘wouldn’t happen’ and ‘why would he want to’ and a man like that would go in the toilets anyway to cause harm if he wanted to.

and appear to have the idea of “real” trans women and “fake” ones

I think this is part of the issue. People still think trans people are those who simply wish to be the opposite sex, rather than people who have redefined the words man/woman for everyone, to depend on the circular and indefinable concept of "gender identity" - in which gender both is and isn't synonymous with 'sex'.

It's not complicated logic but people can't follow it because of the ingrained belief that woman = female and man = male.

Some people even pretend that GC people "identify with their birth sex"!

I certainly don't, as sex isn't an identity to me. I know many GC people feel the same.

I would assume that anyone stating, or assuming, otherwise hasn't understood what GC means, or is dishonestly pretending not to.

Nobody is assigned a sex at birth it is observed and recorded.
Gender dysphoria is a form of body dismorphia which is a mental illness.
Believing that you can change sex is delusional thinking which is also a symptom of mental illness.

“I've yet to see anybody cite or reference the exact part of the DSM5 that clearly shows trans-identification to be a mental illness;”

That would be because they took it out after DSM4. In 2013.

Trans identification is not the only area of DSM 5 which seems to have been adjusted to facilitate the sale of very profitable drugs and medical procedures. A lot of the developers had ties to the pharmaceutical industry. The BMJ cited a report last year which said it was 68%.

The same report suggested that this can be linked to the rise in irrational polypharmacy - the practice of prescribing too many drugs in combinations that don’t benefit the patients.

Most men I know are GC but as the issue affects them less they want to keep their head down and ignore.

It seems to be more gay men that are starting to speak out (out of the men).

The idea that gay people have fought for rights to marry people with certain undefined feelings, rather than people of the same sex, must feel offensive to some.

I just ignore the first bit and build on the second. Enthusiastically agreeing that of course men shouldn't be in women's sport (or prisons, refuges, toilets). If people need to insert a little qualifier to demonstrate they're still a nice kind person despite upholding women's rights, that's not the end of the world. The main thing is that they're on board with upholding them.

I think one of the more pernicious aspects of the GC ideology is the assertion that anyone who doesn't identity with their assigned at birth sex must somehow be suffering from mental illness.

If someone says that they have a gender identity that differs from their sex, it is either:

a) a result of a firmly held belief that everyone has a "gendered soul" (for want of a better term) that is separate from their physical body and that it is possible for this to be misaligned with their biological sex
or b) autogynophilia

For a, the reasons that someone could hold this belief are multiple. As with beliefs like religions, it is most likely rooted in how we make sense of the world around us and how to navigate it. As with religious belief, such as a belief in god, anyone holding a belief in gendered souls has been taught (by someone else) that this is a truth. As an analogy, Christians believe in a "truth" that differs from scientific reality e.g. being taught that human conception is possible without sperm (Jesus). Belief is very powerful.

Whether the person is a or b, either mental illness of some kind and/or an impairment of cognitive processing is inevitably involved if they take steps to permanently alter their physical body, through what is increasingly apparent as harmful to their health, to match their belief/autogynophilic fetish.

Having a mental illness (or a disability which impacts cognitive processing) isn't shameful.

And many people don't identify with their sex just as they don't identify with their number of thumbs or length of their feet.

I have no idea whether I have a gender identity or what it would be. There is no agreed definition or differentiation between women and men (if it's not sex).

the GC ideology

You mean real, demonstrable fact, don’t you? Ideology indeed.

It’s about as ideological as saying that the weather is cold today.

Public opinion will continue to shift. Just a few short years ago GC concerns were not breaking through. That is changing and quickly. I think that people are seeing through the smoke and mirrors. They aren't necessarily influenced any more by the claims sometimes backed by alleged evidence and "science". They can see there is no good reason ever to put men where women are and that people cannot change sex and that there is no such thing as born in the wrong body. That to mix the sexes is not in the interests of women and girls. And that safety and safeguarding must take precedence over "kindness" and to ignore these facts is to endanger women and girls. People on the whole are reasonable and kind and I think they are coming to see that the trans movement is neither of these things and does not afford the consideration which they demand for themselves to women.

That to mix the sexes is not in the interests of women and girls

Even just correctly describing mixed-sex spaces as such would be an improvement.

My friends have, over the years, held the jobs of cleaner, kitchen staff, nursery nurse, teaching assistant, etc - generally practical jobs.

They are also generally on board with GC views - ie men should not be in the women's toilets, not even at work. The erasure of the word 'woman' is also an issue - these hardworking women feel disrespected and sidelined by removing their words.

However, I do think this comes from a position of almost transphobia - trans people are "weird", "mental" and "not normal " so they don't want to be around them anywhere.

Ironically, a position that I rarely see here but we are constantly accused of.

So I think it's worth considering that trans people will still need protection from genuine discrimination and harassment if society changes back to a more sex-realist position.

I find it bizarre that people don't seem to get that allowing transwomen into women's spaces is a problem even if transwomen are in some sense women or are nice, harmless, vulnerable men. Because if you allow transwomen in you allow all men in. Why is it so hard to imagine that men who are not actually transwomen will take advantage of this? I think that keeping attacks on women and children out of the news as much as possible, or in the news but identifying the men as women, has a lot to answer for. People are being lied to and they don't know it. The system has failed us. Someone recently posted about going on some training where the transactivist declared that there had never been an incident of a transwoman attacking a woman in a toilet. That's simply untrue, but news of those incidents is suppressed.

Did you take the time to read the links to scientific papers, facts, and associated material? I'm guessing not so I shall make this nice and clear; your opinion doesn't trump science.

I have no idea whether I have a gender identity or what it would be. There is no agreed definition or differentiation between women and men (if it's not sex).

After much consideration on the subject, lots of discussions on MN and finally this video...

... I've concluded that I don't have one and nor does anyone else.

However, I'm aware that others believe they do and that everyone else does too. Good for them, as long as they aren't coercing, shaming and guilt-tripping others into holding their belief too.

Sadly, many do exactly this through calling non-believers bigots, transphobes and so on. Meaning that women's sports and prisons get infiltrated by males (many of whom will simply feign this belief rather than hold it - see a and b in my first comment), autistic children end up believing their distress at puberty means they are in the wrong body... and so on.

As part of this shaming etc, some people spread confusion, whether intentionally or not, by muddling up being LGB (which obviously doesn't require any body alteration to be true) with "being T" (which requires a belief or autogynophilia).

So I think it's worth considering that trans people will still need protection from genuine discrimination and harassment if society changes back to a more sex-realist position.

Absolutely. We're so used to "saying women are female" being the most hateful violent transphobic act possible that real harm can get overlooked. And female people who ID as trans are often forgotten whereas they can be vulnerable.

I’ve yet to meet anyone who disagrees with me on this subject. And I bring it up a lot.

Our opinions are backed by science.
There are only 2 sexs and nobody can change sex.
There's no more evidence for anybody having a gender identity than their is that anyone has a soul.