Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Talking to non GC people

516 replies

Sausagenbacon · 05/01/2026 08:13

I've been chatting to a few people recently about gender issues, and their opinion runs roughly like this ' we should all listen to each other, and not be so unpleasant. But of course, men shouldn't be in women's sports'
Which begs the question that, if GC people hadn't been 'unpleasant' men would have been firmly in women's sports.
So, should I be pleased that public opinion has shifted slightly, or should I be banging my head against the wall?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
28
SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 20:30

OP, I think this link does a good job of essentially explaining why calling out hate usually has no effect. You tend not to get people who hate one group being tolerant of other groups. There's a big cross-over between people who hate trans people and people who hate other minorities. In other words, you don't get people who just hate one group - people who hate one group tend to hate other groups, too. I love the way the graphics in this link describe intersectionality.

https://www.chelmsfordma.gov/885/What-is-Intersectionality#:~:text=Intersectionality%20is%20a%20concept%20often,is%20disabled%20in%20your%20browser.

Haters gonna hate, basically. It's a deep, fixed, consistent character flaw that's stable over time, and there ain't no fixin' those.

What is Intersectionality? | Chelmsford, MA - Official Website

Intersectionality is a concept often used in critical theories to describe the ways in which oppressive institutions (racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, xenophobia, classism, etc.) are interconnected and cannot be examined separately fro...

https://www.chelmsfordma.gov/885/What-is-Intersectionality#:~:text=Intersectionality%20is%20a%20concept%20often,is%20disabled%20in%20your%20browser.

Seethlaw · 07/01/2026 20:42

@SoftBalletShoes

You do realise OP is asking how to talk to non-GC people from a GC perspective, right? Not the other way around...

borntobequiet · 07/01/2026 20:42

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 20:30

OP, I think this link does a good job of essentially explaining why calling out hate usually has no effect. You tend not to get people who hate one group being tolerant of other groups. There's a big cross-over between people who hate trans people and people who hate other minorities. In other words, you don't get people who just hate one group - people who hate one group tend to hate other groups, too. I love the way the graphics in this link describe intersectionality.

https://www.chelmsfordma.gov/885/What-is-Intersectionality#:~:text=Intersectionality%20is%20a%20concept%20often,is%20disabled%20in%20your%20browser.

Haters gonna hate, basically. It's a deep, fixed, consistent character flaw that's stable over time, and there ain't no fixin' those.

There’s lots of useful advice on this Chelmsford website too.
That’s Chelmsford in Essex, of course. They have a Women’s Safety Charter! That talks about women and girls! Nary a mention of intersectionality!

Go Chelmsford!

https://www.chelmsford.gov.uk

Homepage - Chelmsford City Council

We provide services to local residents and businesses. These include Council Tax, bins and recycling, parking, housing, benefits, parks, sports, leisure and environmental health.

https://www.chelmsford.gov.uk

TheKeatingFive · 07/01/2026 20:42

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 20:30

OP, I think this link does a good job of essentially explaining why calling out hate usually has no effect. You tend not to get people who hate one group being tolerant of other groups. There's a big cross-over between people who hate trans people and people who hate other minorities. In other words, you don't get people who just hate one group - people who hate one group tend to hate other groups, too. I love the way the graphics in this link describe intersectionality.

https://www.chelmsfordma.gov/885/What-is-Intersectionality#:~:text=Intersectionality%20is%20a%20concept%20often,is%20disabled%20in%20your%20browser.

Haters gonna hate, basically. It's a deep, fixed, consistent character flaw that's stable over time, and there ain't no fixin' those.

But it's nothing like 'hate' though is it? Acknowledging that men can't become women and women's sex based rights should be upheld is a million miles away from 'hate'.

potpourree · 07/01/2026 20:45

Yet again can we applaud @Keeptoiletssafe and her knowledge and persistence. Always informative!

Helleofabore · 07/01/2026 20:45

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 20:21

OP, to answer your question, if it's safe to do so, I do sometimes call out despicable hate, prejudice, and ignorance, whether it's racism, anti-Semitism, or trans hate. It's generally a waste of time since bigots never change and are generally wedded to their hatred, but still, there are times I find their views so repulsive that I have to do it. They generally blow their tops at being called out and will weaponise anything to tear you down, including lying about what's written in black and white, hoping that others won't read the actual exchange, and including lying about anything and everything.

It's noticeable how they don't engage with what you're saying at all, they simply attack you personally and are, cringingly, very quick to lose control. Which is not only an ineffective tactic but makes them look really thick. They sometimes remind me of the people on Jerry Springer. 🤣 I don't find this with intelligent, educated people. They tend to have a much better handle on themselves and they respond to the content. You can always tell a bigot because they respond to polite discourse by frothing at the mouth and going nuts. I guess they thin they should be able to hate minorities freely and others should just nod along with their disgusting far-right attitudes.

Hate of any kind is unacceptable. Many people are into power, control, and are unfulfilled abusers, basically. But the saddest thing of all is that often, it's themselves they hate.

Happy people don't hate others.

As long as I live, I'll never understand why some people despise others who are simply going about their lives and doing no harm to them whatsoever.

Can you explain WTAF this has to do with Sausagenbacon's OP ?

potpourree · 07/01/2026 20:49

I assume they wanted to point out that people are allowed to despise and be repulsed by things, but not to hate.
Got it, so let's get back to the topic of the thread.

Taztoy · 07/01/2026 20:50

How is saying that men cannot become women, and that women are legally entitled to single sex spaces and that everyone should obey the law hate? How is it?

Taztoy · 07/01/2026 20:54

I talk to gender critical people in the same way as I talk about it here.

I say no. For men to force their way in anywhere that women legally say no is a consent violation and those men are dangerous to women.

the law says men can’t enter
womens single sex spaces - women are entitled to those spaces. In my case it’s due to trauma, which I have already explained today and I really don’t want to have to do it again, but it can also be for cultural and / or religious reasons.

men cannot become women and women cannot become men. Trans identifying men are a subset of men and trans identifying women are a subset of men.

Finally, if trans identifying men are unsafe in men’s bathrooms, that’s a man problem. It isn’t for women to move up to accommodate those men.

Helleofabore · 07/01/2026 20:55

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 20:30

OP, I think this link does a good job of essentially explaining why calling out hate usually has no effect. You tend not to get people who hate one group being tolerant of other groups. There's a big cross-over between people who hate trans people and people who hate other minorities. In other words, you don't get people who just hate one group - people who hate one group tend to hate other groups, too. I love the way the graphics in this link describe intersectionality.

https://www.chelmsfordma.gov/885/What-is-Intersectionality#:~:text=Intersectionality%20is%20a%20concept%20often,is%20disabled%20in%20your%20browser.

Haters gonna hate, basically. It's a deep, fixed, consistent character flaw that's stable over time, and there ain't no fixin' those.

What a good thing though that I don't believe anyone on MN FWR 'hates' people with transgender identities. You should report hate of people with transgender identities when you see it and if it is not deleted, it is quite likely that your personal definition of hate doesn't meet the professional moderation standards.

And in reference to what you have posted in the link, Bob should be absolutely fine finding a group that will be inclusive of Bob, I certainly hope so anyway. However, it is also very important to note that not every group that excludes Bob legitimately is hateful and bigoted.

The groups that DO exclude Bob should have a very good reason and it should be a proportionate decision to exclude Bob and that it is not based on illegitimate discrimination.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/01/2026 21:09

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 20:30

OP, I think this link does a good job of essentially explaining why calling out hate usually has no effect. You tend not to get people who hate one group being tolerant of other groups. There's a big cross-over between people who hate trans people and people who hate other minorities. In other words, you don't get people who just hate one group - people who hate one group tend to hate other groups, too. I love the way the graphics in this link describe intersectionality.

https://www.chelmsfordma.gov/885/What-is-Intersectionality#:~:text=Intersectionality%20is%20a%20concept%20often,is%20disabled%20in%20your%20browser.

Haters gonna hate, basically. It's a deep, fixed, consistent character flaw that's stable over time, and there ain't no fixin' those.

To be clear, do you classify women who do not believe trans women to be women as "haters"?

Is the simple act of telling a person who claims to be the same as you that you consider the factors they assess as significant commonalities to be far less significant to your lived experience than the factors they assess as insignificant diiferences, by defintion an act of hate rather than simply telling the truth?

Is it, in short, an act of hate not to allow someone else to tell you who you are and how you should understand your own needs, risks and experiences?

CassOle · 07/01/2026 21:17

If hate now means 'to understand that mammals cannot change sex' (and not pretending that they can), then we need a new word that means 'to dislike someone or something very much.'

BettyBooper · 07/01/2026 21:22

@SoftBalletShoes

Do you genuinely believe that knowing there are two sexes and that people can't change sex is 'far-right' and 'hate'?

@financialcareerstuff

This poster is a great example of what women here have to put up with.

Compare and contrast.

CassOle · 07/01/2026 21:32

Pretending that people can change sex has done so much damage. Some of the biggest victims of this lie are the people with trans identities themselves. Every fistula, case of necrosis, or other medical issue due to the experimental surgeries is experienced by a real person. Incontinence (or other big medical issue) is not going to make anyone's life better. So much pain - yet not a single person has ever changed their sex.

I think that the personal accounts of detransitioners are worth reading by everyone. The TRAs also treat detransitioners terribly, which speaks volumes IMO. Think of Gruffin and her tragic death. The posters on this website were really sad that she died.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 07/01/2026 21:35

Seethlaw · 07/01/2026 16:20

What I woud find more interesting is what are the stats of trans identifying males being attacked in male toilets? Are there any? Are they really a dangerous place?

Unless the sight of a transwoman triggers a very specific kind of rage in men, I imagine male toilets are about as safe for a TW as they are for me, which is, very.

When they claim that they are frequently abused what does this mean in practise? Does it mean physical assault or does it boil down to being correctly sexed?

Well, since being "misgendered" is ~literal violence~... Yet, the people I see being uneasy around me are the non-trans people, some of whom seem outright afraid of making a mistake when interacting with me, and treat me like like a grenade that could go off at any time. Man, I wonder what happened to them to make them so jumpy 🤔?

Unless the sight of a transwoman triggers a very specific kind of rage in men, I imagine male toilets are about as safe for a TW as they are for me, which is, very.

There are some men who enjoy trying to bully anyone they perceive as weak. This can include anyone who is camp, and anyone who is 'odd' in any way, and would certainly include many men with trans presentations. When I was (though I say it myself) quite a pretty teenager (for a boy), I experienced some of this behaviour. There are also men with sexual motivations who target the same sorts of men. I was fortunate enough to have enough inner strength and self respect to stand up to that kind of aggression, sufficiently to extricate myself from awkward encounters. But I grew up in a particularly rough area which had more than its fair share of kerb crawlers and people with obvious mental health issues and drug users, and I think in most places male toilets are relatively safe for all men. I have nothing other than personal experience in coming to this conclusion though, no statistics.

There are still some male toilets in which I feel uncomfortable, but the majority are fine even though most men are much stronger than me (I'm not young any more).

HildegardP · 07/01/2026 21:49

@financialcareerstuff I'm in disagreement on several points but perhaps the most pressing is "gender dysphoria", what we have is an ever-changing diagnosis, from gender identity disorder to gender dysphoria via an occasional flirtation with body dysmorphia, & over the last couple of years we've forged on into the splendidly woolly realm of mere "gender incongruence".

These are not proper diagnoses & there are no stable diagnostic criteria for their application. They are activist-led creations whose purpose is to afford the greatest possible number of people access to the widest array of body mods.

The vast majority of men who seek such modifications are motivated either by transvestic fetishism - these tend to opt for breast implants or (often temporary or on/ off) oestrgen & progesterone prescription to induce gynaecomastia, & procedures like trachael shaves & facial feminisation surgeries, they rarely if ever choose vaginoplasty. The majority of men seeking remodelling of their genitals are motivated by the paraphilia, autogynephilia. Always remember that paraphilias cluster &, by virtue of being paraphilias rather than mild kinks, are indicators of above average risk of sexual offending. It is not difficult at all for an AGP male robbed of his sex drive by castration to acquire sufficient testosterone to reawaken his libido.

Those two groups leave you with very few people to whom the lable "true trans" might be applied but among them we find the growing cohorts of detransitioners - the kids & adults dealing with internalised homophobia &/or the explicit homophobia of orgs like Mermaids & the rubes they've "trained", the neurodivergent kids like me, baffled by gender stereotypes & made to feel like imposters in our own sex by the reification of those stereotypes, the sexually abused seeking escape from the habitus of their victimisation, those suffering from misdiagnosed mania & other perfectly diagnosable, treatable, MH conditions who found themselves referred to gender clinics as soon as they mentioned gender issues to their GP but who, instead of the compassionate professionalism they ought to be able to expect, are left in the clutches of narrowly trained, overworked clinicians, with a profound ideological committment to the unquestioning acceptance & encouragement of cross-sex identification.

I once, like you, thought there was such a thing as true trans, for more than 20 years I thought it included me. I now believe neither of those things. The more layers of slogans, wishful thinking & obfuscation one peels away, the more it's apparent that there's nothing at the centre.

And always, always the unanswered question - if gender is distinct from sex &, per Butler, a mere performance, why should changing one's gender entail any change to one's bureaucratic sex marker, or afford access to any provisions made for the opposite sex?

(BTW, since you invoked Segregation, it's worth pointing out that there was often only one set of lavatories provided at work or in public buildings for Black people under that regime, & for all the same reasons of privacy, dignity & safety that motivate women to object to mixed sex lavatories now, Black women objected then.)

Edited for dyslexia, some may remain.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2026 22:01

financialcareerstuff · 07/01/2026 16:54

I am aware I have stepped on various bombs. Some things I knew were sensitive. Others were totally unexpected to me.

  • 'Toilet' issue. This one I knew would be sensitive. I am grateful for the in depth information (especially @Keeptoiletssafe ), and many who have contributed thoughts, their experiences and thinking. I had not thought through in full and did not know the differences between various designs/ set ups. I do hear that this is an issue not only of safety but of comfort, privacy and dignity, and that many feel those needs extending into the wash area. And that all that is important, and yes I agree more important than other people's needs. I do understand and appreciate the rejection of 'quiet inclusion', while part of me still wishes I could cling onto it. So I feel more clarity with this issue - and indeed, better informed and more able to make the case for single sex toilets with others who would question it.
  • The implication 'to be kind'. Though I didn't use those words, and don't think it was my intent - I understand the frustration, and the legacy of women being told to be kind, and I apologised, and do again for somewhat aligning with that. In a movement - regardless of who is protesting or fighting for what, I think there is strategic need for a variety of approaches from very fierce and unreasonable to conciliatory, empathetic and reflective. I believe both are needed at different points, with different audiences, to achieve different objectives. And I think women should be able to discuss that with each other. But yes, I agree, women being told to calm down/be kind when their rights are being infringed is unacceptable.
  • bun fight - very unexpected and unintended. Didn't mean it as an insult, just as short hand for a debate that can become reactive - throwing out points and accusations, without much listening in either direction. I thought it was an uncontroversial thing to say that discussions on GC/Trans often end up like this. I think there has been a little of that in this thread, but that many, many of us have tried to hear and share information in depth.
  • Asking for data on assaults. Totally unexpected. I now realise there is a history here of data wars, and the assumption on everybody's part seemed to be that I was demanding the data to prove there was no evidence of the problem or if there wasn't a big rise it didn't matter. Nope. I was thinking if there was evidence then it would be very useful in explaining to people and I would be able to understand the extent of the challenge. It is a great shame data is so poor and/or corrupted.
  • The suspicion that I'm not who I say I am/ Trans Activist. Totally unexpected. It clearly happens to this board a lot - and that must be very tough and aggravating, making discussions very difficult to have. I did actually keep my normal username, partially so people could check my posting history. I've been here for years in other parts of the board - most frequently posting on threads supporting women trying to leave abusive relationships or trying to rebuild their lives after divorce/infidelity
  • My cousin. I know there were lots of questions for specifics. But I don't think that is my information to share more on, as they are very private but I have absorbed the points people made around this. What I am trying to express, is that personal experiences and connections can create a powerful tension - as others have mentioned. I think they can distort or help to bring clarity, are distinct from policy needs, but can be one of many ingredients that inform them, if one's own experiences aren't used to invalidate others'.
  • 'Middle ground'. I think there was some misunderstanding here. I was not advocating a middle ground in policy or the interpretation of sex. I was saying I was 'middle ground' - as in neither a Trans Activist, or a GC one. When I talked about 'celebrating shared ground' I was talking about celebrating what GC and non-signed up GC women can agree on - nothing to do with celebrating mixed sex spaces.
  • Finally, I want to say that I maybe misunderstood this area of Mumsnet. I had understood this space to be like a stall set out for advocacy - with a desire and intention to engage, argue, broadcast, discuss with people passing by. But I think some have responded more like it is a space for GC women to meet with other GC women and support each other - ie more like a living room. I sincerely apologise if it is intended as the latter, which would make my entire participation totally inappropriate.

Over and out for now with thanks to everyone

And yet no acknowledgment of your own biases and the assumptions which have gone into forming your own position. No attempt to question those, even when pp here have asked you pertinent questions.

FallenSloppyDead2 · 07/01/2026 22:03

Sausagenbacon · 05/01/2026 08:13

I've been chatting to a few people recently about gender issues, and their opinion runs roughly like this ' we should all listen to each other, and not be so unpleasant. But of course, men shouldn't be in women's sports'
Which begs the question that, if GC people hadn't been 'unpleasant' men would have been firmly in women's sports.
So, should I be pleased that public opinion has shifted slightly, or should I be banging my head against the wall?

I think people are beginning to realise the truth about what has been going on but find it really hard to say 'I've been so ignorant, I had no idea' let alone 'I've been wrong, and have actually been complicit in harming women's rights and children's health'.
So they qualify their backtracking with the implied criticism that, if only the discourse hadn't been so hateful, then of course they would have seen what was happening. I guess the more intelligent people consider themselves to be and the more they are used to virtue-signalling their feminism, the harder it is for them to backtrack without a swipe at the women who turned out to be right all along.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2026 22:08

FallenSloppyDead2 · 07/01/2026 22:03

I think people are beginning to realise the truth about what has been going on but find it really hard to say 'I've been so ignorant, I had no idea' let alone 'I've been wrong, and have actually been complicit in harming women's rights and children's health'.
So they qualify their backtracking with the implied criticism that, if only the discourse hadn't been so hateful, then of course they would have seen what was happening. I guess the more intelligent people consider themselves to be and the more they are used to virtue-signalling their feminism, the harder it is for them to backtrack without a swipe at the women who turned out to be right all along.

I agree.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2026 22:09

CassOle · 07/01/2026 21:17

If hate now means 'to understand that mammals cannot change sex' (and not pretending that they can), then we need a new word that means 'to dislike someone or something very much.'

It’s too silly to engage with, tbh.

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:11

Helleofabore · 07/01/2026 20:45

Can you explain WTAF this has to do with Sausagenbacon's OP ?

I posted on the wrong thread! I thought I was writing on the thread Should we be polite to racists, genocide supporters, anti semites and Nazis?

Sorry!!

FlirtsWithRhinos · 07/01/2026 22:11

FallenSloppyDead2 · 07/01/2026 22:03

I think people are beginning to realise the truth about what has been going on but find it really hard to say 'I've been so ignorant, I had no idea' let alone 'I've been wrong, and have actually been complicit in harming women's rights and children's health'.
So they qualify their backtracking with the implied criticism that, if only the discourse hadn't been so hateful, then of course they would have seen what was happening. I guess the more intelligent people consider themselves to be and the more they are used to virtue-signalling their feminism, the harder it is for them to backtrack without a swipe at the women who turned out to be right all along.

It was always going to be this way. I realised a long time ago that the price of undoing Genderism will be to accept our role as scapegoats so the mass public/commentariat can walk it back without having to acknowledge their own culpability.

And while horribly unfair, I think it's a price worth paying to rid our culture and our public bodies of this sexist ideology.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/01/2026 22:11

Taztoy · 07/01/2026 20:54

I talk to gender critical people in the same way as I talk about it here.

I say no. For men to force their way in anywhere that women legally say no is a consent violation and those men are dangerous to women.

the law says men can’t enter
womens single sex spaces - women are entitled to those spaces. In my case it’s due to trauma, which I have already explained today and I really don’t want to have to do it again, but it can also be for cultural and / or religious reasons.

men cannot become women and women cannot become men. Trans identifying men are a subset of men and trans identifying women are a subset of men.

Finally, if trans identifying men are unsafe in men’s bathrooms, that’s a man problem. It isn’t for women to move up to accommodate those men.

This, all day long. And if you (general you) can’t see why these boundaries would be necessary for many women, it’s you who has the empathy deficit.

SoftBalletShoes · 07/01/2026 22:12

BettyBooper · 07/01/2026 21:22

@SoftBalletShoes

Do you genuinely believe that knowing there are two sexes and that people can't change sex is 'far-right' and 'hate'?

@financialcareerstuff

This poster is a great example of what women here have to put up with.

Compare and contrast.

I posted on the wrong thread! I thought I was writing on the thread Should we be polite to racists, genocide supporters, anti semites and Nazis?

Sorry!!

CassOle · 07/01/2026 22:12

That about sums up the 'Bananarama defence'; the women who pointed out that this was wrong just said it in the wrong tone, if they'd have said it more kindly, it wouldn't have come across as so hateful.

I hope this Mother got the support she needed and was able to protect her daughter.

Talking to non GC people
Talking to non GC people
Talking to non GC people
Swipe left for the next trending thread