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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
58
nomas · 12/12/2025 13:02

Artificialhens · 12/12/2025 12:44

It’s not a good thing, but referring to Pakistanis and ethnic Pakistanis by that diminutive is so endemic as to be practically universal across a lot of central Scotland, outside the chattering classes.

As many have said, to the effect of: “Why shouldn’t you call me that? I am a P*.”

Those bad taste jokes about foreign disasters, some managing to be more unfunny than offensive, are also so common that you could not staff a hospital if you excluded everyone who told/shared/liked them.

If Sandie Peggie is a racist on that evidence, then the ET is saying normal Fife people are racist.

I am of the chattering classes and I shun those jokes and names for people, if that matters to anyone.

The old ‘Everyone does it, so it’s ok’ defence doesn’t work anymore.

Especially when you only pick on one minority.

If this is truly what central Scotland is, then by God, what a shit hole.

ProfessorBettyBooper · 12/12/2025 13:03

nomas · 12/12/2025 13:00

Some people from a minority group accepting a pejorative term of abuse to fit in with society is a recognised phenomenon. It doesn’t make it acceptable.

Would they use abusive words for Jews? Black people?

No. So why is it acceptable for Muslims / Pakistanis?

Edited

Maybe start another thread about it?

booksnbaking · 12/12/2025 13:04

I've been reading with bated breath - hats off to the learned commenters who have explained so much and summarised events in a way that even small brains can comprehend - and would like to drop this related Times opinion piece by Alex Massie in here (if I missed it and it's been posted already, sorry) entirely mainly so that I can quote the subhead.

Archive link: Sandie Peggie judge has missed the point of Supreme Court ruling

SH: "His employment tribunal decision in the NHS trans case is full of mistakes and a near-masterpiece of fat-headed special-pleading."

If "NearMasterpieceofFatHeadedSpecialPleading" doesn't make an appearance as a user name some time, I'll fellate a judge eat my hat.

nomas · 12/12/2025 13:04

ProfessorBettyBooper · 12/12/2025 13:03

Maybe start another thread about it?

Why? Why can’t I challenge people saying people like this are some of the nicest and most decent humans?

Emilesgran · 12/12/2025 13:08

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 12/12/2025 12:46

Having read that, it seems bias does not provide grounds for a complaint of misconduct. It is instead a matter for appeal. I'm astonished.

My bolding in the extract below.

...complaints can only be accepted if they contain a specific allegation of behaviour that, if true, could result in a finding of misconduct. The list below contains examples of the more common types of correspondence and allegations received by the JCIO which do not fall within the remit of the judicial complaints procedure (they are instead matters for an appeal):

  • The terms of a judgment, decision or case management order reached by an Employment Judge or Employment Tribunal panel.
  • Bias in the decision-making of a judge or panel.
  • How a judge has managed a case, e.g., allowing one party to speak for longer than another, refusing to allow a witness to give evidence or admit certain documents, appearing to react more favourably to one person’s evidence than another’s, directing that a hearing take place in private, and what adjustments have or have not been made to enable a person to participate in a hearing.
  • A judge saying that they do not believe a person’s evidence, questioning a person’s credibility or honesty, or criticising a person’s actions.
  • A judge making an error of law or procedure.
  • A judge making an incorrect order or refusing to make an order.
  • A judge not reading documents before a hearing.
  • A judge declining to read all documents that are in the hearing bundle.
  • A judge reserving (or refusing to reserve) a case to themselves.
  • A judge recusing (or refusing to recuse) themselves from a hearing.
  • A judge refusing to correspond with a party about a case, or drawing correspondence to a close.

"A judge declining to read all documents that are in the hearing bundle"

Didn't the judge say he hadn't read the internet links that contained data about the relative risks of men, TW, and women in terms of convictions for violent assaults and that therefore he concluded that there was no increased risk in having TW in female changing rooms?

Does not clicking on a link count as not reading the documents provided?

Chariothorses · 12/12/2025 13:14

For the record on this thread, and avoidance of any doubt or confusion as some mumsnetters clearly couldn't read them clearly , @MyrtleLion 's posts above about further corrections were parody. (Though undoubtedly a lot more corrections are needed...)

nauticant · 12/12/2025 13:18

There were very naughty. And I say that as a naughty person.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/12/2025 13:20

OpheliaWitchoftheWoods · 12/12/2025 10:37

That is the part that is catching my attention in a whole blizzard of wtafs.

The whole point and context of needing the statement that there is no hierarchy of rights in the EqA is to try and posit that a man with a gender identity has as much right to be in a women's single sex space as a woman does.

The SCJ quite clearly does not agree. And after a lot of wangling and invented gatekeeping, neither does Big Sond himself, as he's then clear that if the woman complains, the man must be immediately removed and separate provision must be sorted out.

Edited

Indeed.

Janie143 · 12/12/2025 13:21

Sandie's speech was very moving and joy at the appeal is overwhelming but the fact that I now know how to pronounce "wheest" is the icing and cherry on the cake

CriticalConditionUnamendedVersion · 12/12/2025 13:22

Emilesgran · 12/12/2025 13:08

"A judge declining to read all documents that are in the hearing bundle"

Didn't the judge say he hadn't read the internet links that contained data about the relative risks of men, TW, and women in terms of convictions for violent assaults and that therefore he concluded that there was no increased risk in having TW in female changing rooms?

Does not clicking on a link count as not reading the documents provided?

The lawyers on this thread have clearly stated that judges are not required to click on hyperlinks. The reasoning is where does that stop? Should they then click on links within the linked document? If the parties want the judge to read a document they must provide the text of it.

Sounds sensible to me.

Artificialhens · 12/12/2025 13:23

nomas · 12/12/2025 13:02

The old ‘Everyone does it, so it’s ok’ defence doesn’t work anymore.

Especially when you only pick on one minority.

If this is truly what central Scotland is, then by God, what a shit hole.

The old “I’m jumping in with my virtue signal, so I’m OK!”

It wasn’t posted as a defence. It’s a description of the situation. Do you think my description is inaccurate?

There are many shitholes, in and out of central Scotland.

What do you think should happen to S Peggie as punishment for putting “Likes” on it?

Artificialhens · 12/12/2025 13:27

nomas · 12/12/2025 13:00

Some people from a minority group accepting a pejorative term of abuse to fit in with society is a recognised phenomenon. It doesn’t make it acceptable.

Would they use abusive words for Jews? Black people?

No. So why is it acceptable for Muslims / Pakistanis?

Edited

I don’t like it and I wish they’d stop it, but I have little influence.

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 13:27

While we wait for real corrections

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58
LoyalMember · 12/12/2025 13:27

Janie143 · 12/12/2025 13:21

Sandie's speech was very moving and joy at the appeal is overwhelming but the fact that I now know how to pronounce "wheest" is the icing and cherry on the cake

It's 'weesht' in actual fact. A very important difference...😄

Another2Cats · 12/12/2025 13:27

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 12:38

Any link to source or better quality? 🙏

And a third one:

https://x.com/mrsSkys/status/1999426417940197494?s=20

Alex (@mrsSkys) on X

@anyabike Ha! I raise you

https://x.com/mrsSkys/status/1999426417940197494?s=20

Artificialhens · 12/12/2025 13:31

LoyalMember · 12/12/2025 13:27

It's 'weesht' in actual fact. A very important difference...😄

No it’s not. And “Wh” is pronounced completely differently from “W” by all intelligent people.

NormalAuntFanny · 12/12/2025 13:32

Apologies if someone has already linked but RollonFriday (legal snark website) has a good rundown on the many errors.

Actually feel sorry for t

Sandie Peggie judge accused of packing verdict with dodgy quotes

Creative writing

https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/sandie-peggie-judge-accused-packing-verdict-dodgy-quotes#

NormalAuntFanny · 12/12/2025 13:33

Sorry for the judge, sorry cut off.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 12/12/2025 13:34

Can we start these fake correction notices with something like

<Joke linked>
or
<Joke news flash>

Remember that not all people reading these posts are 30 year old meme jockeys

LoyalMember · 12/12/2025 13:35

Artificialhens · 12/12/2025 13:31

No it’s not. And “Wh” is pronounced completely differently from “W” by all intelligent people.

'all intelligent people' 😆 We're talking about Scottish vernacular, ffs. By the way, we're both wrong...

https://www.scotsman.com/arts-and-culture/scottish-word-of-the-week-wheesht-1579180

nauticant · 12/12/2025 13:37

ProfessorBinturong · 12/12/2025 13:34

I'm a few pages behind again. Have we had the para 579 edit yet?

https://x.com/i/status/1999139363716731238

I read an interesting comment that splicing together 2 parts of a judgment, separate by 28 paragraphs, has something in common with what Panorama did with Trump's speech. That actually led to resignations.

OP posts:
GrimDamnFanjo · 12/12/2025 13:38

SpringCalling · 12/12/2025 12:54

On the plus side, Ben Cooper has joined the Appeal Team!

Yay!

Mmmnotsure · 12/12/2025 13:43

MarieDeGournay · 12/12/2025 09:27

Super! 'Dikigorosophilia' it is. Now can we have a flag, and a day, please?😁

It could take place on the first Monday after Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious Day.

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