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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton, following Employment Tribunal judgment - thread #58

1000 replies

nauticant · 11/12/2025 13:09

Judgment was handed down on 8 December 2025:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6936ce28a6fc97b81e57436a/S_Peggie_v_Fife_Health_Board__Dr_Upton.pdf

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing was live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6.

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 51: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5402652-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-51 1 September 2025 to 2 September 2025
Thread 52: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5403218-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-52 2 September 2025 to 4 September 2025
Thread 53: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5404208-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-53 3 September 2025 to 1 October 2025
Thread 54: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5418690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-54 28 September 2025 to 21 November 2025
Thread 55: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5447019-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-55 19 November 2025 to 8 December 2025
Thread 56: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5456749-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-56 8 December 2025 to 9 December 2025
Thread 57: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5457132-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-57 9 December 2025 to 11 December 2025

OP posts:
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58
Squidgemoon · 12/12/2025 13:49

As a commercial litigation lawyer, all the shenanigans about errors in the judgment is fascinating. In the civil courts, the judge almost always circulates a draft judgment to the lawyers under embargo before it’s officially handed down. The lawyers then pore through it and point out all the typos and errors, so the judge can correct them before it’s published. Does this not happen in the ET?? (Well, clearly it doesn’t!)

Good news that it’s being appealed.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 12/12/2025 13:52

MarieDeGournay · 11/12/2025 19:06

I think the point was that it would be so offensive to compare DrU to a rapist that it was harassing?
1007. ....It was we concluded known to the claimant that the prisons incident was a reference to a convicted rapist. It was to be expected that the second respondent would take that reference to be an allegation that the second respondent was also some form of sexual predator.

He is though. Although I suppose the judge doesn't think so since he reckons men in women's changing rooms is fine and dandy.

TheHereticalOne · 12/12/2025 13:54

Majorconcern · 12/12/2025 10:03

Are you confident that the EAT won't be raving mad as well? Do we know what sort of judges sit in it?

There is a list here: https://www.judiciary.uk/courts-and-tribunals/tribunals/employment-appeal-tribunal/about-the-employment-appeal-tribunal/judges-of-the-employment-appeal-tribunal/

The EAT now includes His Honour Judge James Tayler who delivered the first instance judgment in Maya Forstater's case.

For those who need a refresher, that judgment included his ruling that Maya's belief that "sex is immutable", "in its absolutist nature, is incompatible with human dignity and fundamental rights of others."

He also ruled as follows re WORIADS:

"When in an, admittedly very bitter, dispute with Gregor Murray, who alleged
that they had been misgendered by the Claimant, rather than seeking to
accommodate Gregor Murrays legitimate wishes she stated: “I had simply
forgotten that this man demands to be referred to by the plural pronouns “they”
and “them”, “Murray also calls it “transphobic” that I recognise a man when I
see one. I disagree”, “In reality Murray is a man. It is Murray’s right to believe
that Murray is not a man, but Murray cannot compel others to believe this.” and
that “I reserve the right to use the pronouns “he” and “him” to refer to male
people. While I may choose to use alternative pronouns as a courtesy, no one
has the right to compel others to make statements they do not believe.”

90. I conclude from this, and the totality of the evidence, that the Claimant is
absolutist in her view of sex and it is a core component of her belief that she
will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates
their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or
offensive environment. The approach is not worthy of respect in a democratic
society."

So draw whatever you like from that.

(I assume that most on this board will be very familiar with this judgment and so there was no real need to quote it, but for some reason I felt impelled to practice quoting the actual words used in actual judgments so that I don't don't lose the knack...)

Judges of the Employment Appeal Tribunal - Courts and Tribunals Judiciary

A list of the Judges of the Employment Appeal Tribunal

https://www.judiciary.uk/courts-and-tribunals/tribunals/employment-appeal-tribunal/about-the-employment-appeal-tribunal/judges-of-the-employment-appeal-tribunal/

TheHereticalOne · 12/12/2025 13:56

While we're on it, the Maya first instance judgment also contains in its final paragraph an example of the sort of thing for which the slip rule could have been used (emphasis mine):

"It is also a slight [sic] of hand to suggest that the Claimant merely does not hold the
belief that transwomen are women. She positively believes that they are men;
and will say so whenever she wishes. Put either as a belief or lack of belief, the
view held by the Claimant fails the Grainger criteria and so she does not have
the protected characteristic of philosophical belief."

Such an extraordinary judgment. So quotable.

ProfessorBettyBooper · 12/12/2025 13:56

Squidgemoon · 12/12/2025 13:49

As a commercial litigation lawyer, all the shenanigans about errors in the judgment is fascinating. In the civil courts, the judge almost always circulates a draft judgment to the lawyers under embargo before it’s officially handed down. The lawyers then pore through it and point out all the typos and errors, so the judge can correct them before it’s published. Does this not happen in the ET?? (Well, clearly it doesn’t!)

Good news that it’s being appealed.

Well, it was requested by both parties to be shared 5 days before, but for reasons unknown this didn't happen....

MetaCertificateAnnotationsJudgmentFINAL · 12/12/2025 13:56

Squidgemoon · 12/12/2025 13:49

As a commercial litigation lawyer, all the shenanigans about errors in the judgment is fascinating. In the civil courts, the judge almost always circulates a draft judgment to the lawyers under embargo before it’s officially handed down. The lawyers then pore through it and point out all the typos and errors, so the judge can correct them before it’s published. Does this not happen in the ET?? (Well, clearly it doesn’t!)

Good news that it’s being appealed.

Naomi asked for it 5 days ahead of publication.

Wasn’t given. Data dumped on Monday like with us all.

He rue’s the day.

MarieDeGournay · 12/12/2025 13:57

Artificialhens · 12/12/2025 12:44

It’s not a good thing, but referring to Pakistanis and ethnic Pakistanis by that diminutive is so endemic as to be practically universal across a lot of central Scotland, outside the chattering classes.

As many have said, to the effect of: “Why shouldn’t you call me that? I am a P*.”

Those bad taste jokes about foreign disasters, some managing to be more unfunny than offensive, are also so common that you could not staff a hospital if you excluded everyone who told/shared/liked them.

If Sandie Peggie is a racist on that evidence, then the ET is saying normal Fife people are racist.

I am of the chattering classes and I shun those jokes and names for people, if that matters to anyone.

An entire hospital staffed by people who aren't aware that a word that is, whatever its etymology, used as a racial slur, and that hundreds of people dying in a natural disaster is a source of jokes?

If what you say is even remotely true, the world is even more f*cked than I thought.

I was brought up about as far from the chattering classes as you can get, but my parents taught me respect, and that respect doesn't depend on a person's age or colour or class or sex. You don't need a posh background and higher education to do that. If they - who didn't get any farther than primary education - could work it out for themselves, and bring their children up accordingly, so can anyone.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 12/12/2025 13:59

Emilesgran · 12/12/2025 13:08

"A judge declining to read all documents that are in the hearing bundle"

Didn't the judge say he hadn't read the internet links that contained data about the relative risks of men, TW, and women in terms of convictions for violent assaults and that therefore he concluded that there was no increased risk in having TW in female changing rooms?

Does not clicking on a link count as not reading the documents provided?

For the judge to read a document it has to be in the bundle. It cannot be a hyperlink as there would be no certainty regarding the contents of the document which could be changed remotely.

FlippinFumin · 12/12/2025 14:00

Apropos of absolutely nothing. Hopefully this will not be outing me! I met a woman at an event a few years ago and we got talking about holidays. She had just had a jolly holiday on the Norfolk Broads. As they were berthed somewhere they saw another barge approach with what they thought from a distance were three old ladies. Turned out to be three old men dressed as women.
They got chatting and the three old men were judges. They said these were the only times they could dress up as women. Make of that what you will. It certainly gave me a new perspective on the judiciary. Particularly of late.

Artificialhens · 12/12/2025 14:06

MarieDeGournay · 12/12/2025 13:57

An entire hospital staffed by people who aren't aware that a word that is, whatever its etymology, used as a racial slur, and that hundreds of people dying in a natural disaster is a source of jokes?

If what you say is even remotely true, the world is even more f*cked than I thought.

I was brought up about as far from the chattering classes as you can get, but my parents taught me respect, and that respect doesn't depend on a person's age or colour or class or sex. You don't need a posh background and higher education to do that. If they - who didn't get any farther than primary education - could work it out for themselves, and bring their children up accordingly, so can anyone.

All reasonable, except I cannot believe that you are (or anyone is) shocked or doubting, to hear that disaster and tragedy are the subject of jokes.

ThreeWordHarpy · 12/12/2025 14:10

DH grew up in a working class community in Scotland - not Fife - and confirms that the p-word is entirely endemic and used without prejudice. Eg, the corner shop referred to as “The P Shop”, which is I think an example Sandie used herself in her evidence.

He wouldn’t use the word now, moving in different circles. But I really do think it’s one of those things where we have to accept that things are done differently in different places.

EmpressDomesticatednottamed · 12/12/2025 14:10

FlippinFumin · 12/12/2025 14:00

Apropos of absolutely nothing. Hopefully this will not be outing me! I met a woman at an event a few years ago and we got talking about holidays. She had just had a jolly holiday on the Norfolk Broads. As they were berthed somewhere they saw another barge approach with what they thought from a distance were three old ladies. Turned out to be three old men dressed as women.
They got chatting and the three old men were judges. They said these were the only times they could dress up as women. Make of that what you will. It certainly gave me a new perspective on the judiciary. Particularly of late.

Oo-er missus, shades of Cynthia Payne!😬

whatwouldafeministdo · 12/12/2025 14:14

nomas · 12/12/2025 13:04

Why? Why can’t I challenge people saying people like this are some of the nicest and most decent humans?

Yeah, except I didn't say that. I said people in America who are working class Americans who I personally know and who voted for Trump are some of the nicest and most decent human beings I know.

There was literally nothing about racism or race or Sandie Peggie and you also don't know the race of the people I'm talking about either.

The point is by virtue of the fact they voted Trump the media in the UK, leftwing media in the US, and seemingly a lot of the lanyard class would cast them in the bin of either fascist, evil or stupid. But they're actually not any of those things.

I was just making the point that I actually know some Trump voters and those actual people I know are a hell of a lot nicer than most of the people who sneer at Trump voters. It's just an observation, but one I suspect lots of people are making when faced with situations such as the Peggie tribunal where Peggie's use of a Trump hotel was used by the other side as an attempt to smear her - something that was completely unrelated to the matter at hand. But also incredibly ineffective to anyone who realises that several million people in the US aren't automatically awful and should be denied rights (such as women's rights to SSS) because they voted a certain way in a democracy!

alsoFanOfNaomi · 12/12/2025 14:14

One can see the cause lists for Employment Appeal Tribunals here:
https://employmentappeals.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk/public/causelist.aspx

Interestingly the recent hearings for Scotland, which this will be, have been in front of Lady Poole and of Lord Colbeck, both of who are Judges of the Court of Session according to that list. I don't know whether either of them has a track record in this kind of case? As it happens I have spent some time in the company of Lady Poole, who broadly seemed a good egg to me.

Employment Appeal Tribunal > Cause Lists

https://employmentappeals.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk/public/causelist.aspx

Rightsraptor · 12/12/2025 14:15

Following on from FlippinFumin's post above, I once did an alternative therapies taster course and the woman who did the homeopathy session told us about a client she had who was a judge who wanted to be a woman. She was giving him homeopathic remedies and she told us he was very happy as his boobs were growing. It's entirely possible, of course, that he was also taking oestrogen. He wore sexy female underwear under his robes, or so he told her.

I kid you not.

Artificialhens · 12/12/2025 14:17

Rightsraptor · 12/12/2025 14:15

Following on from FlippinFumin's post above, I once did an alternative therapies taster course and the woman who did the homeopathy session told us about a client she had who was a judge who wanted to be a woman. She was giving him homeopathic remedies and she told us he was very happy as his boobs were growing. It's entirely possible, of course, that he was also taking oestrogen. He wore sexy female underwear under his robes, or so he told her.

I kid you not.

He might not get much corroboration that it was “sexy.”

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/12/2025 14:19

PrettyDamnCosmic · 12/12/2025 13:59

For the judge to read a document it has to be in the bundle. It cannot be a hyperlink as there would be no certainty regarding the contents of the document which could be changed remotely.

Ah, I get the problem now, thank you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/12/2025 14:22

Squidgemoon · 12/12/2025 13:49

As a commercial litigation lawyer, all the shenanigans about errors in the judgment is fascinating. In the civil courts, the judge almost always circulates a draft judgment to the lawyers under embargo before it’s officially handed down. The lawyers then pore through it and point out all the typos and errors, so the judge can correct them before it’s published. Does this not happen in the ET?? (Well, clearly it doesn’t!)

Good news that it’s being appealed.

It was requested, but the judge didn’t do it. Maybe he wouldn’t have looked such a tit.

TheAutumnCrow · 12/12/2025 14:22

nebulousMoose · 11/12/2025 21:57

Both quite convincing, perhaps? Credible because they believed the absolute nonsense they were spouting.

Yes, if you’re insane enough then EJ Kemp will find you to be ‘credible’.

Maybe he’s caught a touch of the Frank Boughs during his judging years. The sort Monty Python used to rip the piss out of.

Rightsraptor · 12/12/2025 14:22

Artificialhens · 12/12/2025 14:17

He might not get much corroboration that it was “sexy.”

Wel, he thought it sexy!

Shortshriftandlethal · 12/12/2025 14:23

Vinvertebrate · 12/12/2025 12:12

I am very late to the party having only just had time to read the judgment, mostly with my head in my hands.

I feel sorry for the appellate court having to make sense out of this dog's breakfast. It needs to be re-heard, surely - it's going to be impossible to unpick a total bodge to "rescue" the findings of fact. How can we have confidence that the judge has considered the correct laws (or indeed any laws) when his continual mis-statement suggests that he hasn't understood a word of it? How can we trust his assessment of the evidence when all the "errors" seem to favour the Trust (and surely this alone suggests judicial bias?)

Why are certain parts of Scottish society so tenaciously clinging to the trans activists' agenda?

I suspect it is part of the rebel/nationalist identity....same with Ireland. A way of reisting 'domination' by England, and anything that is said or passed in Westminster.

SionnachRuadh · 12/12/2025 14:24

Judges not using hyperlinks might seem odd outside the system, but it's how it is, not some individual judge's quirk.

In my long ago days of working for a massive public inquiry, if there were 28 versions of a document, I had to save all 28 of them, in chronological order, into a big pdf so the judge could see which official had changed which wording when. It would not have gone down well if I had written the judge an email directing them to a Sharepoint folder and explaining how version control works.

You really do have to walk them through the evidence.

RoyalCorgi · 12/12/2025 14:24

TheHereticalOne · 12/12/2025 13:54

There is a list here: https://www.judiciary.uk/courts-and-tribunals/tribunals/employment-appeal-tribunal/about-the-employment-appeal-tribunal/judges-of-the-employment-appeal-tribunal/

The EAT now includes His Honour Judge James Tayler who delivered the first instance judgment in Maya Forstater's case.

For those who need a refresher, that judgment included his ruling that Maya's belief that "sex is immutable", "in its absolutist nature, is incompatible with human dignity and fundamental rights of others."

He also ruled as follows re WORIADS:

"When in an, admittedly very bitter, dispute with Gregor Murray, who alleged
that they had been misgendered by the Claimant, rather than seeking to
accommodate Gregor Murrays legitimate wishes she stated: “I had simply
forgotten that this man demands to be referred to by the plural pronouns “they”
and “them”, “Murray also calls it “transphobic” that I recognise a man when I
see one. I disagree”, “In reality Murray is a man. It is Murray’s right to believe
that Murray is not a man, but Murray cannot compel others to believe this.” and
that “I reserve the right to use the pronouns “he” and “him” to refer to male
people. While I may choose to use alternative pronouns as a courtesy, no one
has the right to compel others to make statements they do not believe.”

90. I conclude from this, and the totality of the evidence, that the Claimant is
absolutist in her view of sex and it is a core component of her belief that she
will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate even if it violates
their dignity and/or creates an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or
offensive environment. The approach is not worthy of respect in a democratic
society."

So draw whatever you like from that.

(I assume that most on this board will be very familiar with this judgment and so there was no real need to quote it, but for some reason I felt impelled to practice quoting the actual words used in actual judgments so that I don't don't lose the knack...)

I ought to be familiar with the judgement, but in fact I've never read it. That excerpt is jaw-dropping. It's like saying that someone has an "absolutist" view that the earth goes round the sun or that dogs have four legs. Utter madness. And they say that women are irrational!

Beerlzebub · 12/12/2025 14:27

Artificialhens · 12/12/2025 13:31

No it’s not. And “Wh” is pronounced completely differently from “W” by all intelligent people.

Which people?

😉

ThatCyanCat · 12/12/2025 14:29

NormalAuntFanny · 12/12/2025 13:32

Apologies if someone has already linked but RollonFriday (legal snark website) has a good rundown on the many errors.

Actually feel sorry for t

Bloody hell.

Kemp's sloppiness extends to misdefining a key term which has the unfortunate effect of classifying both transwomen and transmen as biological males: "The Tribunal will use the terms 'trans woman' being a person assigned male by sex at birth... and 'trans man' being a person assigned as male by sex at birth", his judgment states.

It's not the worst, but... bloody hell.

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