"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 3

[AuthorisedCat]

Link to Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, evidence from KD (Day 1) and BH (Day 2).

Link to Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5432103-darlington-nurses-vs-county-durham-and-darlington-nhs-trust-tribunal-thread-2

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The NHS trust’s HR department dismissed the nurses’ concerns, stating they should “broaden their mindset” and “be educated”. More details can be found at Sex Matters and at Christian Concern who are supporting the nurses via the CLC.
The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online, requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets
The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.
Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, second claimant to give evidence
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
Other abbreviations:
WFTCHTJ – Waiting For The Conference Host To Join
ET - Employment Tribunal
DMH/H – Hospital, Darlington Memorial Hospital
CR/CF - changing room or facilities
IX - internal investigation
XX – cross examination

FFS stop the corporate speak.

A long way of saying no risk assessment was carried out. What is her role exactly? Apart from avoiding answering questions by spouting a lot of guff.

I've got my NHS bullshit bingo card out, it's filling up quickly

From TT

TA - we have lots of sites. I wouldnt be responsible for taking risk assessment (RA)
NF - are seeing one was done?
TA - we were trying to understand concerns, changing then it was behaviour, it was unclear what we were dealing with. Conduct or sharing or something else
TA - We wanted to understand so we could deal with it appropriately
NF - I'm going to ask about raising complaint. We heard issues being raised pre 2023. Para 9 of Miss Sinclairs [SS] evidence
[J and NF finding in bundle]
NF - Read please

The NHS needs a complete overall since they cannot tell the difference between men and women. Help us all.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15237945/NHS-boss-transgender-colleague-changing-room-large-woman.html

I do wonder if one of the reasons AT has stayed on in the room is to ensure TA doesn't throw him under the bus. Big Brother is watching you give evidence.

I'm sure there was a discussion yesterday that mentioned AT and TA travelled in together, because the judge told AT at the end that he appreciated not talking about his evidence would be difficult on the way home.

From TT

NF - SS refers there to Nurse wilson. Were u aware?
TA - No
NF - Turn to witness bundle. Miss Shields Statement [JS]. Para 16.
[TA finds]
NF - JS speaks of colleague who raises concern. Were u aware?
TA - No
NF - that was 2022
TA - I wasnt there then.
NF - [another page] There u say u became aware 2023 by HR advisor?
TA - Yes
NF - go to 257. Sequence of emails here. All of which predates Feb 2024. Start at 274. At the bottom we see an email from Lesley smedley.

From TT

NF - She writes to [names 3 people too fast] who?
TA - HR, theatre manager, and theatre manager
NF - [reads email] Does this correspond with para 11 of your WS when u first became aware if concerns?
TA - Yes
NF - but this is July not August? It's before
TA - it was still unclear what the concern was or the matters
NF - Pick that up later. This specific issue in theatres, what was it?
TA - Concern there I think.. erm.. let me think. I cant remember.
NF - Jillian Bailey, why is she having the convo?
TA - EDI officer

Her evidence should be interesting.

TA - we were trying to understand concerns, changing then it was behaviour, it was unclear what we were dealing with. Conduct or sharing or something else

Why not conduct AND sharing AND something else?

oooo, will this jillian bailey edi officer come and give evidence and do a Bumba?

This. I wasn’t sure who this witness was referring to when they used the word vulnerable, but I now get the feeling that they have a vision of a slight, lone man, cowering in the corner of the female changing room wishing they had worn better underwear, while the tall, well muscled women stare and make kissy noises with their mouths before making scurrilous remarks about him and use their wet towels to flick at him.

TA - we were trying to understand concerns, changing then it was behaviour, it was unclear what we were dealing with. Conduct or sharing or something else

You were dealing with a man in the women's changing room.

This is all very dead parrot sketch.

From TT

TA - It was how to support local manager and I thought JB would be best placed.
NF - it says JB may come and look at awareness in wider team. Instruction?
TA - no I think trying to understand the situation in more detail
NF - then a jump in chain. Linda Watson?
TA - a matron in the theatres
NF - she says "im not sure we got any further than this. Other concerns about the CR". Were u aware of this?

From TT

TA - No I've seen it since
NF - it seems u were brought in by miss medley?
TA - yes
NF - Miss Watson says " anything u need from me?." Then another gap. [Reads "flagged but not sure anything done" so we are now past August. You say you were made aware by Smedley.
TA - AN issue being described. AN issue. Our role is to get involved and support managers so yes
NF - Then another bit - it was an "education talk. She's not transitioning. A lot of staff struggle with her in the CR" [reads more] So now in July it seems whats

TA - it was still unclear what the concern was or the matter
No it wasn't. You just didn't have the guts to inform Rose that his presence was causing problems and he'd have to use a different space, at the very least until the Trust's policy was clarified.

I don’t usually post on these threads but follow with interest. This may a daft question that has been asked before, but what would stop Rose from following the women to the new temporary changing room.

Nothing

Signal of allyship to the pink & blue flag?

From TT

being done is an education talk. Anything else?
TA - No I dont know what thats referring to
NF - The you have come into the chain. U appear being CCd. Thats w5th September and u come in and u are the HR they want to steer?
TA - It reads like that...
NF - It does.
TA - I think it was more an EDI perspective
[Missed]
TA - I was trying to work out if it was an HR matter. I was trying to get best ppl to move it forward

NF - U say "did this happen" so it's a past involvement? So u have proposed JBs involvement before?
TA - yes

TA said that she wanted a subordinate (Jillian?) to tackle the complaint by groups of nurses not from an HR perspective but from an EDI perspective. She also said earlier than she had no idea what an "education talk" proposed to be given to the nurses would involve. She is being dishonest and slippery.

An organisation that ignores (multiple reports of) concerns until they become written complaints!

If HR didn't understand what the concerns were, what would be the use of an educational talk? What were the staff going to be educated about?

True - what on earth does this mean, if not re-education/be kind?
NF - Bottom of 272 [reads " this has not been addressed. Mentioned as an education talk"] I read that as those ppl came and gave an education talk to those complaining?
TA - No, not awareness, more about the matter theyre discussing.