"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 3

[AuthorisedCat]

Link to Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, evidence from KD (Day 1) and BH (Day 2).

Link to Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5432103-darlington-nurses-vs-county-durham-and-darlington-nhs-trust-tribunal-thread-2

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The NHS trust’s HR department dismissed the nurses’ concerns, stating they should “broaden their mindset” and “be educated”. More details can be found at Sex Matters and at Christian Concern who are supporting the nurses via the CLC.
The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online, requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets
The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.
Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, second claimant to give evidence
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany
Other abbreviations:
WFTCHTJ – Waiting For The Conference Host To Join
ET - Employment Tribunal
DMH/H – Hospital, Darlington Memorial Hospital
CR/CF - changing room or facilities
IX - internal investigation
XX – cross examination

Would someone nip over to K wing on Strangeways and put all the blokes in frocks? All the risk vanished in an instant. It'll work miracles.

What is this man smoking?

With this witness I’m even more grateful to TT and the kind, capable people who c/p their tweets on here. Thank you, @ickky

I just can’t work out what this witness is saying.

despite not being able to hear the words at all really, it feels like TA does blether on a bit

You don't even need the frock. Just say you're a woman.

thanks for copying and pasting, ickky

I do wonder if this witness is heading into Isla Bumba territory here

So was a safeguarding assessment carried out?

Ahh, they've finally realised that if the witness speaks into the microphone then it works.

This, So very, very much this. My DH is now wondering if he's found the answer in a charity shop. One dress, one pair of high heels and it'll be 'oh, how can we help you.' And he may not even need those.

She was saying wouldn't think it a SG risk on sexual orientation or gender presentation.

Well neither would we, the concern is the sex of people involved. Why is so difficult to understand.

So I was right with Sulking Room Pink - just didn't realise the tribunal room was the Sulking Room.....

Why do so many women turn themselves inside out to claim that there's no risk to other women when there's a bloke in our SSS?

From TT

NF - Putting it all together re SG risk
TA - I didnt say no but if concerns came to me I'd need to k ow what those facts are and presented to us.
NF - A bio male claiming F iD is using F CR is larger than most F users, fully sexually functional, not known to users, and may be alone with them, would u accept that as context as SG risk to be looked at?
TA - not sure thats context of the case. May be SG concern. More about vulnerability. Vulnerable duly, child, need clear allegation and then we ID whether than person is vulnerable
[TA being told to slow down]
[J asking for clarification on TA. Now asking mic to be sorted]
NF - Slow down please. I think I'm having a an RSI in my ear
J - Im struggling to keep up on the keyboard

We need Pete to turn up now.

From TT

NF - Another feature in the mix. Another element raised by Cs. The situation the bio male is behaving is ways that cause fear and alarm. That would be furyer element in potential DG concern?
TA - Yes
NF - Re vulnerability- does circs matter?
TA - yes
TA - I wasnt a decision maker and wasnt making SG decision but opportunity for all parties whether TG colleague feels vulnerable or nurses. All considered.

Seems like everyone blaming everyone else!

TA - I wouldnt assess on stature - I'd assess on what is presenting and not stature in general.

If you want to avoid offence, it seems far more offensive to assess somebody's presentation that to simply tell them that they can't use a facility because it is for the opposite sex.

I feel sorry for TT having the task of turning this verbal diarrhea into brief tweets conveying meaning.

I wonder how many people/roles will be thrown under the bus by this witness?

Yes we are back to The Committee of Passing again.

TA - not sure thats context of the case. May be SG concern. More about vulnerability. Vulnerable duly, child, need clear allegation and then we ID whether than person is vulnerable

Surely the point of safe guarding is that you don't reach the point where an allegation is necessary?

From TT

NF - Was there any consideration of F users of that CR at any stage in your involvement ?
T! - we were trying to assess situation. I was unclear what we were dealing with. I didnt know individuals. Id never met DSU colleagues or met Rose.
[Judge asks again slow]

[Judge clarifies]
TA - our role is to support
NF - stand back and consider. Was any assessment or consideration made to F users of that CR to share with bio male?
TA - we were conscious of overarching principles. In terms direct RA, that would need to be done by the service.

TA - I wasnt a decision maker and wasnt making SG decision but opportunity for all parties whether TG colleague feels vulnerable or nurses.

And if the one TG colleague felt vulnerable sharing the women's CR, the solution would be to move all the female colleagues into a fire-risk of a broom-cupboard somewhere....

And of course the national head of nursing is a MAN!

So a big woman in (looks down) jeans and a tshirt is less acceptable in a single sex changing room than a man in a micro mini