"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 2

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Link to Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, evidence from KD (Day 1) and BH (Day 2).

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The NHS trust’s HR department dismissed the nurses’ concerns, stating they should “broaden their mindset” and “be educated”. More details can be found at Sex Matters and at Christian Concern who are supporting the nurses via the CLC.

The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online, requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, second claimant to give evidence
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany

Other abbreviations:
WFTCHTJ – Waiting For The Conference Host To Join
ET - Employment Tribunal
DMH/H – Hospital, Darlington Memorial Hospital
CR/CF - changing room or facilities
IX - internal investigation
XX – cross examination

Thinking about Rose collecting scrubs in the locker room and putting them in the correct bin - there different scrubs for men and for women?

I have a vague memory from making scrubs at the start of Covid that they are not. Although they should be, as their bodies have different proportions.

I recall, I think from the Sandie Peggie case, that scrubs in the NHS are unisex.

Edit - now sound. I’ll rejoin.

I have a black screen and no sound, only interference.

Do I need to leave and rejoin again?

Sound and vision here.

Thank you.

On a break - the Judge asked the witness if she was ok and needed a break. It was clear that an almost naked masculine man walking about a room where she had a need to undress and re-dress [AS REQUIRED BY HER WORKPLACE] would cause anyone distress. There is a reason why we have single sex spaces.

Please find me a woman who will freely get changed in front of any man without exception. I would like to meet one. That is why we have single sex spaces. It doesn't matter that women don't mind some men. No woman accepts all men. That is why ALL MEN are excluded at all times. In line with the law.

I just don't get this questioning at all!

He's a MAN. He could be on his phone, he could be high kicking and pirouetting around the lockers in his boxers, his boxers could be tatty, holey, gaping or tight. He could be coquettishly hiding behind a wall in a towel to get changed quick sharp then scurrying out. He could burst through the door, shout TA-DA and burst back out again. It doesn't matter what the fuck he's doing in there, he shouldn't BE in there. Because he's a bloody MAN!

Following on from @katmarie's comment I think part of it is about minimising the level of distress the nurses experienced. That might help with the defence in terms of defeating some claims and levels of damages.

I remember Dr Sad Times talking about ‘raspberry scrubs’.

Dickhead.

Q: two of the nurses have mentioned being off work, one to sickness and CH mentioned being off with anxiety. Is this related to the issues surrounding the case do we know?

But Mr C said: let’s put that to one side for now.

Oh, right. 🙄

Yes I think it's trying to sow doubt that it was that bad. That rose was just going there for a minimum amount of time and the nurses are making a fuss over nothing. Trying to hide the real issue that he doesn't belong there and has no legal right to be there and their employers should not have allowed it

I'm find this questionning very hard, a bit vomit inducing actually.

The level of contempt the NHS/ their KC are demonstrating for the most basic of female human rights - bodily privacy and women being able to get undressed for work without a bloke being there- is actually scary.

I know he has a job to do but this is just misogyny writ large.

I like this witness (not that my pesonal opinion matters)

SC as a man doesn't understand her responses in general (from TT) a man being in the changing room is a risk.

It's like saying a sharp knife on a table to a kid is a risk. It doesn't need further explaination. But its like SC has never seen a knife and doesnt' have any understanding of risk.

BH was impressive yesterday but it's worth bearing in mind that CH says she suffers from anxiety, and at times did seem to struggle, but despite that turned up today knowing it would be a horrible experience.

After all, what reasonable woman could object to a man with his phone out while she’s changing?

He’s just asked CH whether it would have made a difference if he was “fully transitioned”. This is the second witness he’s asked this question to. He’s going for the “poor Rose is being bullied because he doesn’t look feminine”. It’s sickening. As said above, it’s the if you’re deceived then it’s all ok.

As said above, it’s the if you’re deceived then it’s all ok.

And then, what follows from that, is that if you're not deceived it's not fair to hold the transwomen to any blame because they're one of the ones who can't pass and they have no control over that.

CH is doing brilliantly. Her arm strapped, in injury, needing support with bundles. Shes a HCA and has likely not had the additional education and training some of her peers have had.

She has turned up, spoken her clear truths and at great personal cost stood up for all women. I am so grateful to her.

I have such respect for her. She should get France’s top honour.

Has anyone else been kicked out?

I think it really helps having a senior females on the legal team - as they know rightly that a man in a changing room is an intimidating thing as a fact.

Since men get naked with other men all the time they can't actually understand why these women are scared, harrassed, intimidated and so on.

A woman walking in her underwear in a mans changing room would be a thing of curiosity not fear. There is just no equivalent.

Oh she has been brilliant. When I say I’m struggling, it’s not with her but the absolute obvious trauma and anxiety she’s being put under again because an employer couldn’t stand up and keep a man out of a female changing room. Her bravery is huge.

Latest from TT was that they were having a break, it might be that?

Apparently the system kicks everyone out after an hour - so it might be that. Or a break so we are WFTCHTJ