"Darlington Nurses" vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Trust Tribunal Thread 2

[ThreeWordHarpy]

Link to Thread 1, 7-Oct to 23-Oct; pre-hearing discussion, evidence from KD (Day 1) and BH (Day 2).

Five nurses working at Darlington Memorial Hospital have filed a legal case suing their employer, an NHS trust, for sexual harassment and sex discrimination. The nurses object to sharing the women’s changing facilities with a male colleague, Rose, who identifies as female. The NHS trust’s HR department dismissed the nurses’ concerns, stating they should “broaden their mindset” and “be educated”. More details can be found at Sex Matters and at Christian Concern who are supporting the nurses via the CLC.

The hearing started on October 20th, with evidence starting on October 22nd and is scheduled to last 3 weeks. To view the hearing online, requests for access had to be made by October 17th. The hearing is being live tweeted by Tribunal Tweets who have background to this case on their substack. An alternative to X is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

The Judge made clear at the start of the public hearing on Day 1 that only TT or press have permission to tweet. If online observers see/hear something in the court that isn’t reported by TT, we don’t mention it until the next time there’s a break. This is a very cautious approach to avoid any accusations of “live reporting” on MN. Commentary on the content of TT tweets is fine as soon as they’re posted on X.

Key people:
C/Ns - Claimants, the Darlington nurses
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
J/EJ – Judge/Employment Judge
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for claimants
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
CG – Clare Gregory, ward manager
KD – Karen Danson, first claimant to give evidence.
BH – Bethany Hutchison, second claimant to give evidence
AH – Alistair Hutchison, husband of Bethany

Other abbreviations:
WFTCHTJ – Waiting For The Conference Host To Join
ET - Employment Tribunal
DMH/H – Hospital, Darlington Memorial Hospital
CR/CF - changing room or facilities
IX - internal investigation
XX – cross examination

Their Trade union wouldn’t support them so these nurses had to form their own TU.

Sorry the focus on process is the defence counsel. Else to hang his hat on.

the reverse question is why did NHS. stop a lawyer being present?, seems to me that they were, Just being awkward.

Peggie was allowed this in the absence of a union rep

All we are seeing is the defence case at present - it often livens up when we hear from the NHS managers sharing their bias against the women who don't want men in the changing room. Behaviour behind the process or actions matters.

However - its very common in legal proceedings to claim as much as possible. Some may fall away but you can't add it in after the fact.

They have a good legal team - and good barristers so they have been well advised.

I'm assuming that the tribunal is content to rely on the nurses' witness statements for a lot of the factual info, so they are only asked to swear that they are true and then XX by the other side on bits they want to contest. So it looks as though the dispute is re certain of the claims of harassment. If some of them are crossed out, the level of damages is reduced. But I'm not hearing any discussion of whether RH should be in the changing room nor whether that is sexual harassment,so wonder if they are effectively conceding that

From TT

[The livestream has closed for the duration]

Oh i wonder why

J: I am going to collate Qs from my colleagues which we'll then put to you. Short break - as before, you must not discuss case with anyone meanwhile.

I wonder if Michael Foran will comment on this case? I know he attended the SP case in person, so perhaps that was different.

Does the nurse’s legal representation not get to re-examine them after the cross examination?

How certain are we that the NHS Trust in this tribunal case hasn’t tried to settle before this hearing began ? NHS Trusts usually always try to settle if there’s any debate.
Would the public be told this information ? Presumably, the claimants wouldn’t settle anyway and want this case to be heard in the public interest.

So, in the heel of the hunt, the nurses were not allowed to have their TU representation. Despite it being written that they were.

Strikes me that Foran and Cunningham go hand in hand - and are pally. So he had a specific interest there. Not sure he would be following along as he's started a new term at Oxford and likely to be busy.

From TT

[The livestream is still closed]

Yes, that is true about him and NC. I suspect he will be following the outcome of this case, but at a distance. I do enjoy his live sessions though 😄

From TT

[We resume - J is questioning BH]

J: Did any of you speak to Rose about this?
BH: Do you mean, before the letter?
J: Yes
BH: No, not to my knowledge

From TT

J: Did anyone speak to Rose directly, after that?
BH: Not that I know of

From TT

J: So the changing room. In your experience, how long in there?
BH: Five minutes really - you just get changed and go.
J: Just you, or is that everyone?
BH: I wouldn't know about anyone else, but I am just in and out ASAP

My take is that the contours of the case, and why it's important, are that this is not just about whether duty-bearers have an obligation to provide single sex services and spaces - it's to what extent, when women are harmed through sexual harassment or assault, are they to be held responsible.

If Darlington can be shown to have had credible knowledge that women were being put at risk of significant harm by their delaying bureaucracy, and failed take that risk seriously - rather continuing to plod through a highly contended internal review process to assess the need to exclude TW, then a finding should be able to be found that they are at fault even if 1) they were following a defined internal process and 2) the nurses' behavior was not always exemplary or in keeping with internal processes.

From TT

J: [missed]
BH: yes she was the sister.
[J is checking names of other sisters] changed in the same room?
BH: yes

J: You were on sick leave July-Sept, did you have any contact from R?
BH: I don't really recall - I think maybe a message from Clare Gregory but not certain.
J: Not unusual for someone sick to be contacted by manager.
BH: No

J: We have some transcripts [ref] SC asked if it would be different if RH had 'fully transitioned'. You said no. Would that always be the case?
BH: Basically yes.

Do you think the pharmacy department at this hospital is following along and wants me to stay until the tribunal finishes for the day? Then they'll issue the drugs?

From TT

J: We have listened to the first part of this over lunch and will listen to the rest later. At bottom of page you talk of 'sexually active male' sharing changing room. Then [can't hear J at all - summarising what BH has said, she is agreeing along]

Can't really hear the J's questions well at all

From TT

J: You say there should be transgender changing rooms. Then you say 'if fully transitioned some ppl might feel different [I think - J very unclear]

J: Was that your view?
BH: No not my view at the time - some others in the room I think said so. Some women will have said 'yes of course' I think.
J: But your position hasn't changed
BH: No

In my experience they always take an age.

Look its nothing to do with me or Pam from pharmacy oops