NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #51

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It resumed again over 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give more evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:
drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #50 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 50: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5387893-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-50 7 August 2025 to 1 September 2025

Your image madam

She's speaking so slowly that I zone out between each word

I'm interested to know where she's going with the 'it doesn't matter if Sandie's belief is true or not'.

@Boiledbeetle Why, thank you, kind beetle.

I have heard some drivel in my time from TRAs but it's amazing listening to JR.

From TT

further step. Asks you to find that things happened because of her belief but also asks you to find her belief is true. You do not need to do so; any more than you would need to determine that the Ark was made in 7 days in a case about Christian belief.

In the same way, you do not need to determine if there are only 2 bio sexes or that sex is immutable. We heard from Dr Curren that there chromosomal variations. And also that there is a 3rd situation beyond large/small gametes, there is absence of a gamete.

In relation to immutability, that was the point of the GRA, to give legal recognition to the change in sex and gender. It uses thoses terms interchangeably. Dealing with intersex conditions as being very rare - Dr C said 1/1000=3000. C's submissions said 4/10000.

Dr C’s evidence is more positive than mine. To disprove the binary, you only need one. From article 'There is nothing particularly startling about the law using its own definition', refers to parent who has an adoption order rather than biological connection.

Moving on to direct discrim - doesn't work, because C's comparator - a man using the men's changing room would be asked to share a room with a transman. The C's claim is that it was worse for her because she's a woman. Moving on to harassment claim. Dr U never said or did

JR's microphone has fallen over. I think it may have been a suicide bid

From TT

anything that was harassing or of a sexual nature to C. The case against the Board - was because C had realised she had not gotten away with bullying DU in the CR on Xmas eve. Moving on to the law, mainly domestic. But may touch on Strasbourgh.

😂

Generally, you have to be quite bright to become a barrister, especially a KC. Do you think it's galling having to pretend that you're thick enough to think men are women?

From TT

Beginning with 1992 regs; reg 24 concerns CR, separate facilities for reasons of propriety. Nothing in FWS changes that, it applies to the EA, these regs are derived from Health & Safety Act. Even if I'm wrong, it's hard to see how propriety can be engaged in the CR when we've

🤣🤣

Maybe she is trying to hypnotise the panel.

Precisely @murasaki Almost everyone is potentially violent (only possible exceptions I can currently think of would be people in a coma, people highly sedated, and other people whose movement is extremely restricted) but men, including transwomen, are statistically far more violent than women, and, due to their size and strength, cause more harm when they are. And most men, including most transwomen, have weapons of rape permanently attached to them, which women don't.

Not watching, just reading here, and still I cringe for JR. Such baleful arguments.

Also, new name <twirls>

From TT

heard people were not taking all their clothes off. The place for that was the basement where there were showers.

I've address you on Goodwin in my longer sub, I ask you to draw these 2 propositions, para 90 reflects legal recognition give to trans people because of personal

New name looks fabulous on you, darling!

Not taking ALL of their clothes off.
So that's all ok then, (fine for blokes to see you in your bra & panties??)

It's probably been contemplating it's options since the start.

From TT

autonomy. The right to establish a transperson identity, the unsatisfactory position where transpeople live in an intermediate zone. The 2nd is that refusal to recognise a person's gender interferes with ARt 8 right to a private life. NC has mischaracterised Goodwin

JR is so bad at her job, and highlights just how crazy trans ideology is, that I sometimes wonder if she is actually a GC mole pretending to be a TRA.

😂😂😂

My blood pressure is shooting up reading what JR's saying, but this made me laugh out loud and helped bring it back down a bit!

from herald
2:35pm
Ms Russell is talking about the "mutability of sex and gender" and points to evidence estimating the number of people with differences in sex development (DSD).
"But of course, to disprove the binary, we only need one," she adds.
Moving on to the direct discrimination case, she says this is "really just about the indirect discrimination case."
"It doesn't work in my submission, because the claimant's comparator, the man using the male changing room, would also have been asked to share a space, that space with a trans person, with a trans man.
"The claimant says it was worse or different than her because she's a woman. That's the indirect case.
"The case, moving on to the harassment case against Dr Upton, that also doesn't work, because Dr Upton neither said nor did anything to be claimed that was objectively harassing, still less conduct of a sexual nature."
Ms Russell says the harassment and victimisation case against the board is "all answering" in the sense that Ms Peggie "simply complains about everything that happened after she realised that she had not got away with bullying."

I feel I'm watching the legal equivalent of a goalkeeper time wasting.

Instead of telling us what's she's going to say, why not just say it.

Or even fully clothed without your headscarf if you are a Muslim woman.