NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #26

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was doubtful whether pubilc access for remote viewing would be reinstated but recent developments (as of mid May) suggest that this might actually become available again.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25

I was just coming on to post this link - has there been any other ET on trans/GC issues getting press coverage a week prior?!

Theres so much public interest!

From a legal perspective, that is up to the venue. They can require users to follow their policies or they can leave it up to users. If the particular unit is sponsored by the church, the church may well expect the unit to follow its policies regarding single sex spaces. If the unit is independent, the church may want to maintain distance between itself and the unit to avoid any chance of becoming legally liable for the unit's actions.

This, from The Times article:
Meanwhile, public bodies such as Fife Health Board appear to be conducting a rearguard action against human biology

More lies and slander on reddit

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/transgender-allies-reddit-repeat-disputed-35510461?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

It's a pity that this article doesn't highlight that the Reddit transgenderuk subreddit is a total echo chamber where any posts that even mildly contradict the groupthink will be deleted.

It’s not that long, and she’s a pretty experienced nurse, she can walk back into her job just like every mum who takes a year or two of mat leave. That’s a pretty thin argument. She’s employed and nhs fife have absolutely no grounds to change that.

I'm of the opinion that the accusations of professional misconduct against SP are worse than the accusations of harassment or transphobia or whatever.
To suggest that an experienced nurse disregarded the welfare - even the survival - of patients is a despicable accusation to make.

The fact that it came up as an afterthought indicates that DrU either made it up, or that DrU thinks that endangering a patient's life is less important than DrU having access to the women's changing rooms.

Either way, I hope DrU is held to account for this specific element of his case. As well as all the others, obviously!

There certainly should be disciplinary action taken against any professional who saw another professional put a patients life at risk and then waited months before deciding to tell anyone. Especially if they only bothered to mention it to bolster a complaint about how they felt that professional had treated them so clearly not bothered about patient safety at all…

Do email the journalist and suggest they try posting an alternative view to see what happens? I'm sure they'd be up for that and then update their article with whatever they find...

Presumably she didn't intend her thesis to be used as an instruction manual by her own son....

Listening to that part of DU's evidence was very telling. There was a complete row-back on the professional misconduct allegations. DU seemed to understand the dangers of false allegations and the result was some very tempered/moderate statements that wouldn't usually add up to professional incompetence.

In the light of day and under oath, DU had to state the plain facts - of which there were very few - and there just were very few specifics or records. Which was very out of character for someone who took a lot of notes on who did/didn't use the changing rooms...

Crucially that the PC events were from Sept/Oct 2023 but not reported until after the "hate incident" and indeed - in March? - which was only after there was a chance that SP was to return to work (at times which would not overlap with DU but which would allow her contact with other staff).

NC claimed the PC allegations were to ensure SP's suspension persisted and that she was kept away from the department. It remains to be seen if this is proved. Next week I hope to hear more about the timing of DU's claims and the results of the phone disclosure. NC seemed to be looking for evidence for the timings to prove the above. Malicious claims of PC against DU could be very serious if proved.

Sorry to ask but do you have a link you can post to the thesis?
I know it was on an earlier thread... but no idea which one
Thanks

On the subject of the resusc. thing - I thought the allegation was that she had left a patient who was in the resuscitation area for the purpose of taking some details (on the understanding the good doctor was going to do it) but that patient was a "regular" patient, not someone critical undergoing resuscitation at the time. And that the area was effectively "mixed use".

Did I recall that wrong?

That’s also how I recall it. I don’t think the patient was ever being resuscitated

I think this is the issue (from Tribunal Tweets, morning session 2 of day 4):

JR: refers to bundle. You describe a situation where a patient went into resus. What stage in your shift

DU: Last hour of a midnight finish, 11:05-10

JR: What was the situation

DU: Had a patient brought in by ambulance who was shirt of breath.

DU: Can be tricky to pick up patients at this time- night shift take over and there are fewer doctors. Felt I had enough time to avoid handing over a half finished job.

JR: What is the usual protocol

DU: Depends on how well the person is- observations taken and ECG often done. Seen by a doctor for history and examination

JR: Who normally does observations

DU: Normally nursing staff

JR: What happened on this occasion

DU: Usually let nursing staff do it, often talking and gesturing during ECG, which affects readings. I tend to wait for them to finish

DU: If they are very unwell we have to do everything at one. I judged they were not unwell enough for me to jump in. Let SP go in and do observations

JR: What happened next

DU: Was keeping an eye on the time, noted SP had left so will start my role

DU: I can let her finish if she has not

JR: Did SP return

DU: Yes, she said I can do observations, unusual

JR: Why

DU: Not unusual for anyone who is free to do some sets of observations.
Unusual for this to happed in resus doe to severity of patients

JR: What did SP do next

DU: SP left the room, not sure where she went

DU: I finished the observations and wrote it down. Saw SP and other nurses after, SP told the others calmly that I had done observations

JR: How did you feel

DU: Just unusual

DU: Third time SP has behaved unusually. May have been called away but just a bit weird and off-putting. Usually nurses say why

JR: Why do you think she asked you to do the observations and left?

DU: Initial impression she did not want to be in the same space as me

Or maybe she was giving a trainee doctor a chance to practice a job they were qualified to do but inexperienced in?

Like - what DU was in the hospital for.

She was if i recall on triage.

IIRC, Upton literally ran through the hospital in tears, searching for a senior member of staff to report the heinous behaviour of Sandie when she asked him to remove himself from the female changing area but apparently faced with behaviour which 'affected patient safety', he only felt fit to report it months later and at an opportune point to uphold his own bullshite.

Pull the other one mate, it's got bells on.

'Literal violence' init? How could he not be distressed?

Upton said he ran though the hospital in tears. Apparently no-one else saw that except I think someone walked him to his car?

And yes, she probably let him do the observations because she was on triage and he needed the practise. I've been told it's not unusual for a doctor to do obs if the nurse if busy but some junior doctors might feel it beneath their dignity. Most doctors would just get on with it unless it was happening all the time.

🎯

What does feeling "unusual" really mean? It's such a vague word to use specifically when describing watching someone else. Upton's description is such a flimsy example of somebody acting in what he feels is an inappropriate way.
She basically did her job, checked he could do observations, walked away as he was competent. He didn't ask for support. Then later says he felt unusual.
Surely everyday he feels generally unusual as he is not a usual man?
Most men don't pretend to be women.

Having had the misfortune of spending quite a bit of time in A&E at the vic over the years i can tell you that there's nothing unusual about a junior Dr doing obs on a stable patient near shift change as it allows the nurses to finish paperwork, make sure all patient notes are up-to-date and hand over to the next shift, whilst simultaneously allowing the Dr to get practice with both their bedside manner and taking obs so it's a win win really. Or perhaps I should say it normally is, but apparently special people think its below them.

Wasn't she also the Floor Coordinator? So it was her job to make sure everyone was being seen to. If she were slacking, there would be chaos across the department and people would have definitely noticed and talked about it.

Morning all!

Since the 16th July is getting close, I’ve got my deck chair, pop up tent and Thermos and I am in line ready for the grand (re)opening of the tribunal of the year.

I cannot imagine what those two weeks will bring, I’ll never forget “biological woman” and “nebulous dog whistle”. I wonder if the witnesses will admit defeat and play it as though they were following trust policy or double down that TWAW.

I am particularly interested to see, given it’s summer now, whether Upton turns up in his best chintz frock.