NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

Often said but it is more complex than that.

Sticking to this issue rather than attempting a more general explanation, the view of the courts is that, particularly when dealing with criminal offences, the law needs to give certainty. People should be able to know in advance whether their conduct could constitute a criminal offence. If the law is clear and capable of being understood by the average person, the fact you don't know the law may not be a defence (although it sometimes can be even in this situation). However, if the law is unclear and the average person has no way of knowing what is required to comply with the law, that is likely to be a complete defence.

When dealing with single-sex spaces, an employer was faced with both the EHRC and the HSE taking the position that it was illegal to exclude trans women from women-only spaces. There were a number of instances of the lower courts endorsing that view, including an attempt to challenge the EHRC guidance through judicial review which failed, with the judge saying that the case against the EHRC was unarguable. Against that background, how was an employer supposed to know that they were breaking the law by admitting trans women into women-only spaces? Seeking legal advice wouldn't help as most lawyers, given the decisions by the courts, would have advised employers to let employees use the facilities that matched their acquired gender. Indeed, I wouldn't be surprised to find that some insurers were telling employers they must follow this interpretation of the law, or their insurance would be void.

The Supreme Court has now said that the lower courts, the EHRC and the HSE were wrong, so it was always an offence for an employer to allow trans women into women-only spaces (and, indeed, trans men into men-only spaces). However, if it wasn't possible for an employer to know that with certainty at the time, they cannot be found guilty of a criminal offence even though they have committed one. In the view of the courts, that would be the same as passing a law that retrospectively made vaping a criminal offence and prosecuting anyone who has ever vaped.

But it would seem to follow that any employer now who lets transwomen into an all woman space would be committing a criminal offence, particularly with the publicity which the Supreme Court judgement has received?

However, with Darlington and Fife could both Trusts not have offered the transwoman the alternative provision? Which after all is the line Darlington took, although they offered a sub standard alternative to the women employees.

This would have kept the Single Sex provision.

They are now, and now they could be prosecuted for doing so, although the HSE likes to persuade employers first and only prosecute if they continue to flout the law.

Yes, they could have offered alternative provision for trans women and that would have been legal. However, they would still have been told by authoritative sources that they had to allow trans women into the women's facilities and that insisting they use the alternative provision would have been unlawful.

I blame Fife Council Ed Dept for pushing their schools to go for those Stonewall charters/awards/whatever. (I've forgotten the precise terminology.)

Ever since Ian McKellen went on the Graeme Norton show wearing a Kirkcaldy High School tie after telling the pupils to "be nice to one another" they've been basking in the moment.

That's funny, because Madras, where Dr Not A Robot was 'educated', is a naice school, arguably the top LA school in Fife.

And Kirkcaldy High, frankly, insnae.

Aye, but Ian McKellen didnae go tae Madras! 😔

I know folk who have worked at Madras, and it's not all that it's cracked up to be.

@BezMills

My pet peeve with KHS is the number of parents who insist on parking on the pavements around the crem.

ETA You still have parents, pupils and staff at KHS imagining that they're The High School - but the Stonewall Charter et al has become hugely important to them, from what I can see.

This is interesting because I want to raise the toilet issue with my employer, because a group of colleagues complained a few years ago and we got nowhere. If a random employee, 3 years ago, had said to HR ‘the Workplace Health and Safety regulations require single sex toilets and you are breaking the law by having mixed sex ones’ do you think an employer would be acting reasonably if they

a) ignored because what would an employee know
b) ignored because Stonewall told them to have the policy
c) took legal advice but were told their trans policy was fine.

Would large employers run all HR policies past the legal department?

I suspect my employer did b) but I also think that if they had taken legal advice the advice would have been they were fine….

The question of where they got their advice is largely irrelevant. The important point is that the lower courts were getting the law wrong, as were the bodies that would prosecute employers, so, as far as the courts are concerned, they had no way of knowing for sure that what they were doing was wrong. They would certainly be safer if they had taken legal advice that told them they were ok, but I would be very surprised if the courts were willing to convict them of an offence based on what happened 3 years ago. If they continue to refuse to provide genuine single sex accommodation, that is another matter.

Things are definitely getting weird:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/dd0d377308aa7025

"Junior medics claim binary divide between sex and gender ‘has no basis in science’"

I think I'm developing a phobia of junior doctors if they are this divorced from reality... wow

And this!
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/b15c48dc9ef27f6e

If there isn't rigid binary in terms of sex, how do doctors know how to treat people who, after all, have one of two known anatomical forms?
How is female and male anatomy taught and learnt?

Caroline Criado Perez covered that in her book Invisible Women. There is only one sex they consider. Simples

Surely medical schools cannot teach that there is only 1 sex though? (I hope not!)
And, if 2 are taught, then 2 exist.

A separate specialist health area for selected mutilation may benefit the minority group if they don't want mental health support (for surgery that is not based on healthcare such as removal of a healthy penis). It won't change anyone's sex though.

I sympathise. Or empathise, I can never remember which is which!

I know what you mean about coming to the awful realisation that the world is worse than you suspected and people don't give a shit about things that matter to you and you thought other people did too..

My worldview was thrown into disorder by the rise of the trans movement, because I am a rational person and all I could see was unscientific irrational nonsense taking over the law and education and medicine and the media and even the minds of allegedly sensible people.

In your case, I guess it's the realisation that people spend years and years working out systems and procedures and guidance etc, which are then totally ignored, because it's too much trouble to do the right or the safe thing, let's just bodge it instead.

I'm sorry you are feeling all this so keenly at the moment

The wing of BMA, which represents about 50,000 doctors in training…….never asked those 50,000 to vote.

Maybe they need to vote with their feet? Or at least start speaking out?

'Send in the clowns'

spannasaurus · Yesterday 08:26

Upton is out of time to make a tribunal claim.

At last, some solidly positive news.

Although I suppose it depends on what’s been happening at NHS Fife for Dr U? Both during 2024 while the tribunal hearing was awaited and then after the good Dr went totally wacko under oath. I wonder if they’ve had to take DU off patients facing roles because they’re now infamous? Would you want the Dr administering your anaesthetic having announced they had “unexpected” views on consent?

Thank you for your words - means a lot. I’m so grateful for you all on here. I do talk to people in real life and I try my best but as you say, it just baffles me how so many people can be taken in by what is essentially an unscientific “Cult“.

You need to take care of yourself and make sure to take a break and do nice things. It gets too much especially reading these boards a lot. I had to have a bit of a cry about all yesterday. And I rarely cry these days. It’s been hard reading all the NHS Policies. The erasure of women. I didn’t realise that women were hated this much. Or maybe even just valued so little. For this to be done across the public sector - it’s really messing with my mind. In a way it’s reassuring to know you and others feel the same about all this. It was reading the threads here that tipped me over into action so we do just have to keep speaking up. Hope you feel better soon

Hang on, what is a "binary divide between sex and gender" supposed to mean?

Is it like a binary divide between pears and oranges? In the sense that pears are one thing and oranges another? In which case, clearly yes, it is pure fact that they are two separate things.

Never mind Biology, did these doctors pass their English GCSE?

Sod GCSEs, this is super basic stuff. Could they tell the difference between a ewe and a ram as a child?

Two pieces on Radio Scotland this morning: mammograms and domestic violence. Talking about “gender“… STOP talking about gender! It’s SEX! I swear the prudishness around uttering the three letters S E and X in Britain is part of the reason we are in this mess…