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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

1000 replies

nauticant · 20/04/2025 08:15

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

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33
Naunet · 27/04/2025 22:39

thenoisiesttermagant · 26/04/2025 09:49

It's harm for women who self-exclude because - due to religion, belief, trauma or just a desire for dignity - they cannot use mixed sex services. They then cannot access healthcare.

I very much suspect the number of women who've not accessed healthcare and self- excluded due to 'inclusive' policies is very high. Of course the NHS won't be looking at that.

I put off an operation for 5 years for this reason, I ended up severely anemic and had to have 2 years of therapy to just get the courage to go to a doctor and get the ball rolling. Luckily I had a GC therapist who completely understood my concerns, but I had to also worry about being called a bigot when I first booked that too.

I have CPTSD from childhood abuse, and I really needed a female medical team, which thankfully, I got, with no resistance.

KnottyAuty · 28/04/2025 00:05

prh47bridge · 27/04/2025 21:56

Sorry for the delayed response. I've been away for the weekend.

Simply entering a female space is not a criminal offence on its own. Depending on what they do, it may be voyeurism, indecent exposure or some other offence.

Failure to comply with Health & Safety at Work Act or any regulations made under that Act (including the regulations requiring single sex changing rooms, etc.) is a criminal offence.

Who enforces the H&S Law. I enquired about NHS Fife not providing single sex accommodation prior to the SC ruling and was advised it was not serious enough of a problem for them to intervene - ie they prioritise H&S which is risk to life or health. So if the HSE aren't fussed who would be?!

prh47bridge · 28/04/2025 07:05

KnottyAuty · 28/04/2025 00:05

Who enforces the H&S Law. I enquired about NHS Fife not providing single sex accommodation prior to the SC ruling and was advised it was not serious enough of a problem for them to intervene - ie they prioritise H&S which is risk to life or health. So if the HSE aren't fussed who would be?!

Depending on the setting, the HSE or the LA. Hospitals are mainly the responsibility of the HSE, but the LA is responsible for any independent shops or cafes operating on hospital premises.

Needspaceforlego · 28/04/2025 07:33

Peregrina · 27/04/2025 22:21

Thanks for that prh47bridge

To me that sounds like someone in NHS Fife and Darlington could be in serious trouble for letting the H & S law be broken. I think I am correct in saying that it could lead to imprisonment. I assume depending on the severity of the breach, which I would imagine won't be considered severe enough in either of these two cases.

Where's that WTF face?

Ok nobody has been killed but not only have Fife broken the law, they've tried to bully Sandie Peggie into silence.

At what point would it become a criminal case? Because at the moment its a Employment Tribunal are they able to issue criminal sentences?

Nhs Fife were following Scot Gov guidance? Who would end up carrying the blame, the Scottish Government or Fife?

Oh there must be some people sitting around with brown pants!

prh47bridge · 28/04/2025 07:38

Needspaceforlego · 28/04/2025 07:33

Where's that WTF face?

Ok nobody has been killed but not only have Fife broken the law, they've tried to bully Sandie Peggie into silence.

At what point would it become a criminal case? Because at the moment its a Employment Tribunal are they able to issue criminal sentences?

Nhs Fife were following Scot Gov guidance? Who would end up carrying the blame, the Scottish Government or Fife?

Oh there must be some people sitting around with brown pants!

No, the ET cannot issue a criminal sentence. ETs only hear civil cases.

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 28/04/2025 08:10

Needspaceforlego · 28/04/2025 07:33

Where's that WTF face?

Ok nobody has been killed but not only have Fife broken the law, they've tried to bully Sandie Peggie into silence.

At what point would it become a criminal case? Because at the moment its a Employment Tribunal are they able to issue criminal sentences?

Nhs Fife were following Scot Gov guidance? Who would end up carrying the blame, the Scottish Government or Fife?

Oh there must be some people sitting around with brown pants!

Sadly, I very much doubt anyone in Scotland is worried. My prediction is that this will be brushed under the carpet with the usual platitudes about “lessons learned”. NHS Fife will blame ScotGov and say it was all too difficult and unclear, as evidenced by the fact you needed a SC case, and ScotGov will say each Trust is responsible for their own policies and compliance so nothing to see here. Call me cynical, but it’s happened time and again.

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 28/04/2025 08:14

Yogachick · 26/04/2025 09:32

I see NHS trusts are ‘working through’the implications of the SC judgement. What IS there to work through? Surely just stop doing what they shouldn’t and move people if needed is all that’s necessary? I feel I must be missing something incredibly complicated( serious question)?

That’s bureaucracy speak for brushing it under the carpet and hoping it all goes away.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 28/04/2025 08:20

I was wondering if both Sandie Peggy and Dr Upton have a claim against Fife NHS for discrimination? Sandie Peggie for sex discrimination and Dr Upton for gender reassignment discrimination since Fife didn't follow procedures and gave illegal advice / instructions that put Dr Upton into conflict with Sandie Peggie?

If so this could get very expensive.

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 28/04/2025 08:23

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 28/04/2025 08:20

I was wondering if both Sandie Peggy and Dr Upton have a claim against Fife NHS for discrimination? Sandie Peggie for sex discrimination and Dr Upton for gender reassignment discrimination since Fife didn't follow procedures and gave illegal advice / instructions that put Dr Upton into conflict with Sandie Peggie?

If so this could get very expensive.

I was actually wondering that too.

I think they’ll try and resolve these individual cases, perhaps by trying to settle.

spannasaurus · 28/04/2025 08:26

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 28/04/2025 08:23

I was actually wondering that too.

I think they’ll try and resolve these individual cases, perhaps by trying to settle.

Edited

Upton is out of time to make a tribunal claim.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 28/04/2025 08:27

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 28/04/2025 08:20

I was wondering if both Sandie Peggy and Dr Upton have a claim against Fife NHS for discrimination? Sandie Peggie for sex discrimination and Dr Upton for gender reassignment discrimination since Fife didn't follow procedures and gave illegal advice / instructions that put Dr Upton into conflict with Sandie Peggie?

If so this could get very expensive.

I really hope that Dr Upton does raise a claim. I would pay good money to see him give evidence in another ET.

Needspaceforlego · 28/04/2025 08:28

@ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly
Sadly your probably right.

What would happen if Peggie reported it to the HSE ?

IDareSay · 28/04/2025 08:51

KnottyAuty · 28/04/2025 00:05

Who enforces the H&S Law. I enquired about NHS Fife not providing single sex accommodation prior to the SC ruling and was advised it was not serious enough of a problem for them to intervene - ie they prioritise H&S which is risk to life or health. So if the HSE aren't fussed who would be?!

Indeed. So what is the point of a Health and Safety law that nobody is willing to enforce?

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 28/04/2025 09:18

IDareSay · 28/04/2025 08:51

Indeed. So what is the point of a Health and Safety law that nobody is willing to enforce?

I know. I have become so cynical. So many laws on the books that are not enforced … it’s been a bit of a rude awakening across my lifetime that people just don’t give a shit. I used to train people in my job and the gulf between what is written on paper and what folk understand and do in real life. Policies are rarely even read, let alone adhered to.

Sorry to sound off but I’m really having a rough time of it at the moment with all this.

Harassedevictee · 28/04/2025 09:32

PrettyDamnCosmic · 28/04/2025 08:27

I really hope that Dr Upton does raise a claim. I would pay good money to see him give evidence in another ET.

Depending on the outcome of whether or not Dr Upton has to hand over his phone and the full disclosure, it is possible DrU will be recalled as a witness.

FlowchartRequired · 28/04/2025 14:45

No... they also don't appear to be on the side of the environment. I still wonder what damage is being done by all the extra synthetic hormones in the water.

prh47bridge · 28/04/2025 14:53

IDareSay · 28/04/2025 08:51

Indeed. So what is the point of a Health and Safety law that nobody is willing to enforce?

It is always open to private individuals to enforce the law by bringing private prosecutions. You also have the option of taking the HSE to judicial review if they decide not to prosecute a particular case. However, I agree that neither solution is satisfactory if HSE is failing to enforce an important law.

Going back to the question of criminal cases, I doubt anyone will face prosecution. One of the basic principles that is generally followed in criminal law is that, with a few exceptions, you can only be convicted of an offence if you were aware, or should have been aware, that what you were doing was wrong. Most of those involved can probably argue that, prior to the SC ruling, they had a reasonable belief that they were required by law to admit trans women to single sex spaces for women. If the courts accept they genuinely believed this and that the belief was reasonable, it is unlikely they can be convicted.

Chersfrozenface · 28/04/2025 14:54

FlowchartRequired · 28/04/2025 14:45

No... they also don't appear to be on the side of the environment. I still wonder what damage is being done by all the extra synthetic hormones in the water.

WWF used to be really vocal about hormones getting into water and affecting wildlife. They seem to have gone very quiet on the subject lately.

As for the Green Party, I can't find anything from them, at all, at any time. Strangely. /s

PrettyDamnCosmic · 28/04/2025 15:08

Adrian Ramsay the other co-leader of the Greens cannot toe the party line & refuses to answer when asked whether he thinks "trans women" are women. Good for him not to go along with this batshit ideology but it's a shame that he cannot bring himself to actually say the truth that "trans women" are men.

https://archive.ph/bnfVP

Llamasarellovely · 28/04/2025 15:33

Not really relevant to the ET hearing itself but I saw that SP donated all the £38,500 raised to various charities.
In unrelated news, I see £5,807 was raised for treats for Beth to treat Bethself. Which is nice.

Arran2024 · 28/04/2025 16:31

prh47bridge · 28/04/2025 14:53

It is always open to private individuals to enforce the law by bringing private prosecutions. You also have the option of taking the HSE to judicial review if they decide not to prosecute a particular case. However, I agree that neither solution is satisfactory if HSE is failing to enforce an important law.

Going back to the question of criminal cases, I doubt anyone will face prosecution. One of the basic principles that is generally followed in criminal law is that, with a few exceptions, you can only be convicted of an offence if you were aware, or should have been aware, that what you were doing was wrong. Most of those involved can probably argue that, prior to the SC ruling, they had a reasonable belief that they were required by law to admit trans women to single sex spaces for women. If the courts accept they genuinely believed this and that the belief was reasonable, it is unlikely they can be convicted.

I thought being unaware of a law was no defence?

Peregrina · 28/04/2025 17:01

I can see that they might have thought it reasonable to admit men with a GRC but the others not. But then how would you decide which had the GRC or not?

In the professional jobs I did in my working life I always had to produce paperwork to prove who I was and my qualifications. Some of my qualifications are in my maiden name, so I would have to produce my marriage certificate also.

Beth Upton's university qualification was awarded to Theodore Upton and only about 18 months or so before as far as I can gather. That in itself ought to have flagged that he couldn't have a GRC at that time.

But perhaps the mantra TWAW deafened people in authority. It didn't deafen a good many of us more lowly individuals.

BezMills · 28/04/2025 17:02

I think Dr Upton has a solid case.

Against the University of Dundee School of Medicine. When doing the crowdfunding I'd expect as a stretch goal to go after his high school biology teacher and possibly even his primary teachers. Everyone deserves a good education and Dr Upton has been let down. Bigly

Peregrina · 28/04/2025 17:03

Everyone deserves a good education and Dr Upton has been let down. Bigly

Perhaps he was too busy being Mr Smart Arse to bother to listen. There's always one!

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