NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #25

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access. However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24

Here's another article which came out of the NHS Audit thread for London - 3 articles from London region alone!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/25/teenage-boys-on-girls-hospital-wards-nhs-gender-rules/

Plus share link for the comments:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/071806ba6d79292a

And archive:
https://archive.ph/Iyblu

Well done vipers!
There's still egregious stuff not yet covered...maybe enough for another 2?

Your work was mentioned on the Anti Social radio programme today on Sex, Gender & the NHS with Bev from LGB Alliance & Cleo something from Gendered Intelligence.

@KnottyAuty and team. You are blooming brilliant.
Thank you ever so much for taking this on and generating so much publicity. I'm so sorry that I've not been able to lend practical support due to other life pressures.

You are all incredible

Oh wow! Where would I find that? Can you post a link please?

Sorry - just found this on the BBC?
Good grief I wasn't expecting that:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002b76x

Mighty oaks from little acorns grow, or something like that 😁

Your work is getting some well deserved attention. And just to think. Following the FWS judgement, if this hadn’t been done, I’m sure there would be a lot of bluster about there being no evidence of no single sex provision etc. The trans advocates are still trying to wedge in the ‘1 complaint’ angle (which was debunked by Bev in this program).

31:24
Bev: I'd like to ask Cleo - do you think that women have a right to spaces for biological women? Or do you think we don't have that right?

Clea: I believe that everyone has the right to their own spaces. I just think that transgender women share that right.

In other words "no"

The ‘we have common cause’ nonsense just boils my blood. I’m not interested in ‘common cause’ with men who refuse to recognise women have rights & boundaries & are absolutely entitled to say ‘no’ to forced teaming. We’re not human shields for men, and they need to sort their own shit out, away from our female only provision.

Just listening to this podcast I am struck that Bev's superpower IS being an older woman. TRAs may have tried to characterise her as a right wing nazi-type, but that idea just doesn't stick to a calm, reassuring motherly voice asking for plain speech.

I see NHS trusts are ‘working through’the implications of the SC judgement. What IS there to work through? Surely just stop doing what they shouldn’t and move people if needed is all that’s necessary? I feel I must be missing something incredibly complicated( serious question)?

You're not missing anything. They're just looking for a reason to drag their feet.

Could I ask prh47bridge if a man entering a female single sex space is committing a criminal offence just by that action or would he have to be accused/convicted of voyeurism or indecent exposure?

Are the Health Authorities committing criminal offences by ignoring the Health and Safety Laws, or is that a civil offence? If it's not automatically a criminal offence would some harm have to be proved for it to be a Criminal offence?

They are profoundly misogynistic organisations determined, seemingly, to not recognise women's rights.

Sorry, but that is very clearly what I've got from being involved in the NHS Audit thread.

This theory also explains a lot of maternity failures. I think it's root and branch misogyny.

It's harm for women who self-exclude because - due to religion, belief, trauma or just a desire for dignity - they cannot use mixed sex services. They then cannot access healthcare.

I very much suspect the number of women who've not accessed healthcare and self- excluded due to 'inclusive' policies is very high. Of course the NHS won't be looking at that.

The EHRC guidance says you can't lawfully have a women+MCW group that excluded other men, so that clears that up. In practice, I would think the hypothetical student group could set one up and nobody would complain. However, it would/should affect matters like funding.
And of course a small group would fall outside the scope of the RA anyway.

ETA: The WI, on the other hand...

What I am trying to get at is, could Dr Upton or any other man who insisted on entering a female space be charged with a criminal offence? How high does the burden of proof have to be? In his case there don't appear to be mitigating circumstances to say it was a genuine mistake.

We’re not human shields for men, and they need to sort their own shit out, away from our female only provision.

@GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder nailed it!

IANAL.
It would have to fall into the description of a specific criminal offence - voyeurism comes to mind as a possibility. There may be other offences to do with being intimidating if he was being aggressive or loud. Or there may be offences related to planning to commit a sexual offence. But if just standing there, not saying anything, no phone or recording equipment, penis not visible etc then the best bet would be voyeurism, I think.

I have wondered this too. Voyerism? Harassment?

When I was a child (last century) someone would call the police on a man who wouldn’t leave the women’s changing rooms and they’d be “lifted” as we say in Scotland!

Oh dear you need to stop reading the policies for a while!

I had the same reaction - Go and do something nice for a distraction to undo the paranoia

It’s the casual misogyny in it that upset me most. I imagine it didnt occur to the people who wrote the policy how hurtful the words are

So since EHRC met with Scottish health secretary last Thursday to give him his arse on a plate they would have had advance warning of the guidance released Friday evening.
Can we expect NHS in Scotland to update guidance to all staff on use of changing rooms this week?
There will be plenty GC staff in the NHS just itching to report them to EHRC if they ignore this

One of the things in the Antisocial podcast that had me bellowing in rage (it happens quite a lot) was the thing about "ooh, well how is the NHS going to find all these private rooms to accommodate transwomen on male wards etc?" The rooms are already there. They were being used to accommodate transmen on male wards before.

Sorry for the delayed response. I've been away for the weekend.

Simply entering a female space is not a criminal offence on its own. Depending on what they do, it may be voyeurism, indecent exposure or some other offence.

Failure to comply with Health & Safety at Work Act or any regulations made under that Act (including the regulations requiring single sex changing rooms, etc.) is a criminal offence.

Thanks for that prh47bridge

To me that sounds like someone in NHS Fife and Darlington could be in serious trouble for letting the H & S law be broken. I think I am correct in saying that it could lead to imprisonment. I assume depending on the severity of the breach, which I would imagine won't be considered severe enough in either of these two cases.

In seem to recall being told in an H&S training session a couple of years ago that H&S is the one exception to 'innocent until proven guilty' and that rather than the HSE having to prove your guilt you have to prove your innocence.