NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #24

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23

Unemployed hopefully.

Definitely true if the law requires employers to know their employees’s sex but doesn’t require this information to be accurately stated on id docs!

I'm not completely sure who the Women's Institute admit as members, but that sounds as if I can join despite being a man who doesn't claim to be a woman.

A simple solution (IMV) is that all application documents for ID should include the questions -

What is your biological sex M or F
What is your Gender Identity M or F ( the non binarians have to answer one or the other).

Repeal the GRA or amend it to revoke the ability to change gender on driving licences and any other ID document with or without a GRC.

As you can see, I am just swiftly scribbling this down, I haven't thought it through at all. It's just my instinctive thoughts, that I'm sure will be scuppered by something or other.

A reluctance to repeal/amend the GRA being one of them I'm guessing!

The employer can make it a condition of employment that the person states their biological sex. This is reasonable if the employer needs to provide single sex facilities. They can point out that lying about their sex is gross misconduct. If they think the person is lying they can hold a disciplinary investigation. If the panel thinks they are lying on the balance of probability they can sack them. Obviously if the employee is not lying it is their choice to supply medical evidence or be sacked, if they obviously look like the other sex.

Identifying as up shit creek without a paddle

I don't know but it's certainly crossed my mind that it's concerning that a man with a doctorate in human medicine thinks a male can be biologically a woman.

It's surprising he managed to pass a Nat 4 with that knowledge (Nat 4 being a grade below GCSE) not knowing that.

So he's either thick, delusional or talks mince!

There might be some HR folks on overtime this holiday weekend.

One of those situations where he's perfectly free to hold whatever beliefs he may choose, but those beliefs would appear to be incompatible with the duties and responsibilities of the job he has chosen.

Yes. He may believe what he wants to including "biological sex is a nebulous term that doesn't really mean anything"

Well I think the Supreme Court might just disagree!

I've just looked nebulous up - hazy - God I love a MN school day!

Bet they are delighted it's the long Easter bank holiday then!

No, you can't. Under the WI constitution, membership is open to men only. If you are a man, you cannot join. They can legitimately exclude you even if you did claim to be a woman.

The employment tribunal will not consider his fitness to practice. Not their job. That is for the GMC.

His beliefs cannot automatically make him unfit to practice. However, if his beliefs affect the treatments he gives patients, that can make him unfit to practice. And if he insists on giving an intimate examination to a patient who has requested a female doctor, he is probably committing a criminal offence unless it is an emergency and no female doctor is available.

They don't have to stay joined to Upton. They can settle and leave him to defend himself.

Should that be "open to women only", perhaps?

And transwomen, of course, since 2015.

One, Petra Wenham, who "transitioned" at the age of 68, got appointed to the National Federation of Women's institutes membership committee in 2023.

Not only would lying about biological sex be gross misconduct but it would also be illegal. I have seen cases of fake medical professionals convicted of fraud when found out.

But it would be an awful lot easier if you could just request accurate ID docs, in the same way that you know that a British passport is evidence of right to work.

Imagine going through all this with Dr Upton.

What would that evidence be though, given we can't trust passports?

Surely they can only settle if Sandie Peggie agrees to it too?

Is this a situation where their right to legally discriminate on the basis of sex would be undermined by the fact that they include some men?

It should! Apologies.

Indeed.

Very important points about the falsification of documents like passports (and the ability to apply for a DBS check through a discreet channel). These government departments/ agencies have let citizens and service providers down badly. It's the leisure centre employee or the fellow swimmer who's going to have to be the Unkind Misgendering Gate-Keeper, while the faceless #BeKind bureaucrat faces nothing, and faces nobody!

I've seen similar arguments on here a few times. My view is that their position is defendable if a man chooses to make a sex discrimination claim against them, but I may be wrong. We won't know for sure unless someone actually does so.