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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #24

1000 replies

nauticant · 24/03/2025 19:16

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23

OP posts:
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39
Conxis · 10/04/2025 10:03

Signalbox · 10/04/2025 09:14

They should just live stream it. Allows everyone to watch without the endless interruptions. Also saves their staff from having to be involved.

Edited

I think you should write to the judge with your excellent solution here.
NHS Fife will be delighted you’ve sorted the issues for them!

Treaclewell · 10/04/2025 10:11

Needspaceforlego · 10/04/2025 08:03

Mandrakes scream 😱 when pulled out the ground and can be fatal 😜

You'd need transwo-mandrakes, though, wouldn't you?

Myalternate · 10/04/2025 10:14

DontStopMe · 10/04/2025 09:47

Yes, I saw that at the time, something along the lines of "I'm not a robot, therefore I'm biological, and I'm a woman, so I'm a biological woman".
It is extra specially mind boggling that this could come from a doctor.

Cockroaches are biological also.

Needspaceforlego · 10/04/2025 10:14

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 10/04/2025 08:56

Someone on Twitter has mused that they perhaps don't want the content of Dr Upton's phone to be revealed. 👀

🤯 the mind blows at what might be on there.

Could he have potentially illegal photos?

AnnaMagnani · 10/04/2025 10:16

Well I once looked at Lia Thomas' Instagram.

Strongly do not recommend unless you have access to brain bleach.

Rightsraptor · 10/04/2025 10:26

I'm amused by that Tweeter/X poster calling Naomi Cunningham 'Naomi Campbell', and she's not a KC although she should be IMHO.

I have no doubt that TT got some things wrong. They state who they are (not a bunch of lawyers or experts), they do their best but if they make errors they rectify ASAP once notified. What's wrong with that?

It seems we have increasing numbers of David & Goliath cases happening, where there's a big mismatch of power. TT - volunteer 'citizen journalists' having their efforts raked over by NHS-funded lawyers, the volunteers at the pool organisation being taken to court by HH - who is backing him, I wonder? Maybe not a Goliath, but someone's chucking some money at it.

Rightsraptor · 10/04/2025 10:27

Needspaceforlego · 10/04/2025 10:14

🤯 the mind blows at what might be on there.

Could he have potentially illegal photos?

Probably best not to speculate here: MNHQ may not be happy about it.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 10/04/2025 10:32

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 10/04/2025 07:49

NHS Fife are suggesting that TT have not been reporting accurately.

Technically, NHS Fife are correct. TT don't appear to be shorthand typists (or whatever the term is) and they do their best, which is a lot better than nothing and a lot better than I could do.

A better solution would be a Hansard-style transcription, and a Youtube or similar live feed. NHS Fife are effectively blaming an inadequate technological setup for inaccuracies and interruptions. I'm sure I'm not the only one to suspect deliberate sabotage by people who didn't manage to mute themselves, despite most people having used Zoom and the like.

Datun · 10/04/2025 10:47

DontStopMe · 10/04/2025 09:47

Yes, I saw that at the time, something along the lines of "I'm not a robot, therefore I'm biological, and I'm a woman, so I'm a biological woman".
It is extra specially mind boggling that this could come from a doctor.

It's what people like India Willoughby say. Social media twits who contradict for the sake of it, just to keep talking.

It's really, really not the sort of thing you expect a doctor to say. In a legal setting.

Apart from anything else it's so childish. As gotchas go, it's poor even for a 10-year-old.

It's like when you say to your kid I won't tell you again. And they get all faux indignant when you do, because you said you wouldn't.

DontStopMe · 10/04/2025 10:51

That's exactly it: it's so childish. And you know how clever they think they're being.

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 10/04/2025 10:54

Been on holiday so still catching up. Could TT appeal any decision to exclude them? I have been concerned about the ET judge since the beginning.

BelfastBard · 10/04/2025 11:01

Needspaceforlego · 10/04/2025 10:14

🤯 the mind blows at what might be on there.

Could he have potentially illegal photos?

I suspect it’s more likely that his “contemporaneous notes” will be shown to have been drafted long after the alleged incidents and his email chains will show huge discrepancies in his initial reporting of events to when he raised complaints etc. I also suspect they might indicate contact with movers and players who have agendas of their own…

snickersbarchild · 10/04/2025 11:05

We all want to know how he managed to get advice from his professional body over the Christmas period.

StellaAndCrow · 10/04/2025 11:32

Datun · 10/04/2025 08:31

Oh please, please let the judge say, well if you think that, we'll just live stream the whole thing on YouTube

Oh please, please let the judge say, well if you think that, we'll just live stream the whole thing on YouTube

I mean, seriously, that worked really well for the Post Office Horizon Inquiry.

Benefits included the obvious ones of all interested parties being able to observe, plus:

  • getting to see and hear witnesses was VERY revealing in some cases (slippery lawyers, thuggish investigators). And heart-rending in the case of the Human Impact Statements
  • Documents were put up on screen in real time
  • Could be replayed later for anyone not able to watch live
  • Can watch at double speed when necessary :)

I thought that was an excellent example of open justice.

Snowypeaks · 10/04/2025 11:37

The attempt to have exclude TT as well as having the public observers excluded is conflation. Totally different issues. TT are providing contemporaneous notes. The public are just watching. NHS Fife lawyers claim TT have made errors - but they don't say that they are significant errors. It could just be that they got a page number wrong, or misspelled a name!

StellaAndCrow · 10/04/2025 11:54

DontStopMe · 10/04/2025 09:47

Yes, I saw that at the time, something along the lines of "I'm not a robot, therefore I'm biological, and I'm a woman, so I'm a biological woman".
It is extra specially mind boggling that this could come from a doctor.

Yeah, copying famous ex-academic philosopher Veronica Ivy/Rachel McKinnon was never going to be a great strategy.
I wonder if it was like at intrusive thought that just had to come out "don't say 'I'm not a robot so I'm biological' - oops, there it goes!"

5

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=115&v=3WT13uT7hzU&feature=youtu.be

StellaAndCrow · 10/04/2025 11:57

snickersbarchild · 10/04/2025 11:05

We all want to know how he managed to get advice from his professional body over the Christmas period.

Ooh, yes, (it's all coming back to me now!) - I suspect this did happen, but in a very much "boys down the pub" situation (other venues/means of communication are available)

LeavingBigLaw · 10/04/2025 12:01

StellaAndCrow · 10/04/2025 11:32

Oh please, please let the judge say, well if you think that, we'll just live stream the whole thing on YouTube

I mean, seriously, that worked really well for the Post Office Horizon Inquiry.

Benefits included the obvious ones of all interested parties being able to observe, plus:

  • getting to see and hear witnesses was VERY revealing in some cases (slippery lawyers, thuggish investigators). And heart-rending in the case of the Human Impact Statements
  • Documents were put up on screen in real time
  • Could be replayed later for anyone not able to watch live
  • Can watch at double speed when necessary :)

I thought that was an excellent example of open justice.

It also allowed televised reporting to replay the most interesting segments later in all their glory.

Bring it on, I say.

StellaAndCrow · 10/04/2025 12:05

LeavingBigLaw · 10/04/2025 12:01

It also allowed televised reporting to replay the most interesting segments later in all their glory.

Bring it on, I say.

Yes, excellent point! Exactly, bring it on.

Truly they need to be careful what they wish for. Tribunal Tweets have been doing a wonderful job at real time reporting; it would be ironic if by objecting to their "inaccuracy" they ended up with live streaming on YouTube.

Needmoresleep · 10/04/2025 12:23

Not "boys down the pub", but "'girls' in front of the make-up mirror", I suspect.

With no one wanting to reveal the operations of the trans lobby with the NHS.

BellissimoGecko · 10/04/2025 12:26

Snowypeaks · 10/04/2025 11:37

The attempt to have exclude TT as well as having the public observers excluded is conflation. Totally different issues. TT are providing contemporaneous notes. The public are just watching. NHS Fife lawyers claim TT have made errors - but they don't say that they are significant errors. It could just be that they got a page number wrong, or misspelled a name!

Which is always going to happen when you’re live-tweeting. It’s not an excuse to ban them!

RethinkingLife · 10/04/2025 12:51

The NHS legal beagles must be working from a court approved transcript.

Essential but I wonder how much it costs.

NImumconfused · 10/04/2025 12:57

RethinkingLife · 10/04/2025 12:51

The NHS legal beagles must be working from a court approved transcript.

Essential but I wonder how much it costs.

There have been articles in the press before about the cost of transcripts, it's thousands (possibly tens of thousands) to get them, so it's a bit off that the NHS legal lot are spending yet more taxpayers cash on nitpicking TT's tweets to try to get them banned!

RedToothBrush · 10/04/2025 12:58

If it ends up being broadcast on youtube, would there be associated costs with that? And if so, who is liable for them?

If transparency and accuracy are the issue here, then why was the number of people allowed to watch restricted - this meant there was less accountability on who could watch. And how is tribunal tweets any different from anyone else who could relay court proceedings. We've seen some very economic with the truth representations of previous court cases from trans quarters in the past and no one has taken issue with that from a legal point of view. Nor with the somewhat dubious newspaper andd news outlets who repeatedly still refer to these cases wrongly as 'anti-trans' rather than pro womens rights within the current existing scope of the law and conveniently always seem to gloss over harassment and threats.

Remember this is a public body which has public accountability responsibilities wanting to put this behind closed doors. Nothing quite says 'cover up' and 'scandal' quite like censorship.

Meaning if there is a ruling supporting the request, it will Streisand and add more fuel to the political fires on this.

Particularly if ultimately the case goes against Fife.

A man saying in court they are biologically female remains an issue regardless. This is a man under oath. This is a man practising as a doctor. This does not cease to be the case. Arguably I'd go as far as to say its in the realms of perjury and that isn't a great look. You can't BE trans and claim you are the opposite sex biologically - otherwise you aren't trans, because otherwise what are you transing from/to??!

NImumconfused · 10/04/2025 13:01

NImumconfused · 10/04/2025 12:57

There have been articles in the press before about the cost of transcripts, it's thousands (possibly tens of thousands) to get them, so it's a bit off that the NHS legal lot are spending yet more taxpayers cash on nitpicking TT's tweets to try to get them banned!

I just googled - it cost between 75p and £2.30 per 72 words!! The mind boggles how much Upton's ramblings will have cost...

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