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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/02/2025 14:11

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

OP posts:
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11
Conxis · 23/02/2025 15:10

Ah thank you for clarifying that @DontTellMeWhat2Do
I was imagining the situation where someone takes a job and then says I need these adjustments but you can't ask me why or for any proof I am entitled to these. I've never come across a situation where that's just taken at face value, no questions asked. Anyone I've known has generally gone through Occ Health for an assessment. So in other words it's Occ Health who "see" the proof

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 23/02/2025 15:12

no worries, they don't even need to go through OH, they can refuse and still be entitled to adjustments. The cost of legal action means its best just to assume they are covered and make the adjustments. Anyway, all very different from denying biological fact 😊

0ctavia · 23/02/2025 15:24

Peregrina · 23/02/2025 09:39

What puzzles me is this. Upton graduated from Dundee in 2021 as a man. Did he start with Fife health authority immediately? Did he need to present his graduation certificate to them? He then decided to transition in 2022. It seems then that there is a fudgy time line and we think he can't have a GRC when the first incidents were reported in 2023. He might of course have one now, but that won't affect this case.

To answer some of your questions and add some thoughts.

We don’t know when DU started with Fife HB. We are guessing that he started at an FY1 in august 2021 - that’s the first year of a 2 year training programme that he needs to complete to be fully qualified as a doctor.

He claims that he was “ fully out as trans at work “ by August 2022, when he was an FY2, a second year trainee. So very junior, still wet behind the ears.

Most junior doctors with half a brain have worked out that the nurses with 30 years experience usually know a great deal more than they do and it’s wise to treat them with respect as valued colleagues rather than pick fights and try to play oneupmanship games with them.

They also know that most nurses are team players and will stick together, that anyone who has worked there for 30 years will probably be well liked and well respected, so it’s probably smart not to piss them off.

That’s if they have half a brain of course. As we have seen, not all do.

You asked about paperwork - NHS Fife have many of bits of paper to check before someone starts work - graduation, Registration with GMC, birth certificate, PVG checks ( police checks) , vaccination records , references, proof of right to work in the Uk / citizenship etc

Re GRC - As you say, given the time line, we assume that DU didn't have a GRC at the time of these events. We also conclude that he doesn’t have one now or he would have mentioned it in the belief that it would help his case “Look here’s proof I’m legally a woman as well as biologically a woman”.

One of the consequences of this case for DU is that he has outed himself as a rather difficult character, to say the least. This is going to limit his career opportunities ( that’s if the GMC doesn’t put restrictions on his registration, given that he can’t tell if patients are male or female and that he has stated in court that he would to treat Patients without their consent ) .

Maybe he could get hired with the likes of Gender GP 😂. Or in some area of public health medicine where he only has to interact with other True Believers. But no one is going to ever hire him in a role where he has to work in a team, which is most jobs in medicine.

Im guessing he wasn’t an academic high flyer, given his jobs to date, so he's probably not smart enough or qualified to get an academic post.

I also note that unlike most of his class, DU did NOT attend his graduation ceremony in June 2022 ( there was no in person ceremony in 2021 due to covid rules ). Which is odd given that he was obviously living less than an hour away. Draw your own conclusions.

KnottyAuty · 23/02/2025 15:24

Subject change… I’m sure this has been asked before… how is the trans movement different to race appropriation?

And this case? - www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/13/rachel-dolezal-i-wasnt-identifying-as-black-to-upset-people-i-was-being-me

TriesNotToBeCynical · 23/02/2025 15:28

KnottyAuty · 23/02/2025 15:24

Subject change… I’m sure this has been asked before… how is the trans movement different to race appropriation?

And this case? - www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/13/rachel-dolezal-i-wasnt-identifying-as-black-to-upset-people-i-was-being-me

I don't think in the UK we care in the slightest what race people identify as.

KnottyAuty · 23/02/2025 15:28

@0ctavia
Interesting you say that DU was not at graduation. How did you check? Might there have been another alias?

KnottyAuty · 23/02/2025 15:30

TriesNotToBeCynical · 23/02/2025 15:28

I don't think in the UK we care in the slightest what race people identify as.

Agreed. But I was asking about someone simply saying that they identify as something/someone they are not. The US woman was ridiculed. DU has been fully supported by the NHS. Why such different treatment for behaviour that looks so similar? Why are women not calling this out?

duc748 · 23/02/2025 15:31

I thought photos have been linked to in these parts which (allegedly?) were taken at graduation? Or was that some other ceremony?

fromorbit · 23/02/2025 15:31

Starmer comments on Peggie. Pretty standard:

Catriona Stewart
I asked Keir Starmer about the Sandie Peggie case.
He said he’s not “across all the details” but “I do believe the government supports safe spaces for women and the Equality act, and I think the government should follow the law. I think that is straightforward."
https://x.com/CatrionaStewart/status/1893634325779734706

Keep an eye on the Sarwar thread for the ongoing crisis in Scottish Labour the Upton case has triggered

NoWordForFluffy · 23/02/2025 15:37

FFS, Starmer. Try harder. Stop wittering on about safe fucking spaces. Single. Sex. Spaces. Not safe; SSS. Idiot man.

WearyAuldWumman · 23/02/2025 15:37

0ctavia · 23/02/2025 15:24

To answer some of your questions and add some thoughts.

We don’t know when DU started with Fife HB. We are guessing that he started at an FY1 in august 2021 - that’s the first year of a 2 year training programme that he needs to complete to be fully qualified as a doctor.

He claims that he was “ fully out as trans at work “ by August 2022, when he was an FY2, a second year trainee. So very junior, still wet behind the ears.

Most junior doctors with half a brain have worked out that the nurses with 30 years experience usually know a great deal more than they do and it’s wise to treat them with respect as valued colleagues rather than pick fights and try to play oneupmanship games with them.

They also know that most nurses are team players and will stick together, that anyone who has worked there for 30 years will probably be well liked and well respected, so it’s probably smart not to piss them off.

That’s if they have half a brain of course. As we have seen, not all do.

You asked about paperwork - NHS Fife have many of bits of paper to check before someone starts work - graduation, Registration with GMC, birth certificate, PVG checks ( police checks) , vaccination records , references, proof of right to work in the Uk / citizenship etc

Re GRC - As you say, given the time line, we assume that DU didn't have a GRC at the time of these events. We also conclude that he doesn’t have one now or he would have mentioned it in the belief that it would help his case “Look here’s proof I’m legally a woman as well as biologically a woman”.

One of the consequences of this case for DU is that he has outed himself as a rather difficult character, to say the least. This is going to limit his career opportunities ( that’s if the GMC doesn’t put restrictions on his registration, given that he can’t tell if patients are male or female and that he has stated in court that he would to treat Patients without their consent ) .

Maybe he could get hired with the likes of Gender GP 😂. Or in some area of public health medicine where he only has to interact with other True Believers. But no one is going to ever hire him in a role where he has to work in a team, which is most jobs in medicine.

Im guessing he wasn’t an academic high flyer, given his jobs to date, so he's probably not smart enough or qualified to get an academic post.

I also note that unlike most of his class, DU did NOT attend his graduation ceremony in June 2022 ( there was no in person ceremony in 2021 due to covid rules ). Which is odd given that he was obviously living less than an hour away. Draw your own conclusions.

He was still Theodore Upton and presenting as male when he married in 2021.

needmoresheep · 23/02/2025 15:39

I am so pleased that this case was public with no reporting restrictions. I bet NHS Fife with Carol & the mean girls must be spitting that it wasn’t behind closed doors.

Well done to SP & her legal team so far. This has made people uncomfortable.

TeiTetua · 23/02/2025 15:47

KnottyAuty · 23/02/2025 15:24

Subject change… I’m sure this has been asked before… how is the trans movement different to race appropriation?

And this case? - www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/13/rachel-dolezal-i-wasnt-identifying-as-black-to-upset-people-i-was-being-me

Well, what the TRAs would say is that your particular ancestors define what your racial group is (or combination of groups for some people). But gender is based on "what you know you are" and doesn't depend on the physical configuration of your body or your so-called sex chromosomes. Basically gender is a social issue, and you can decide to accept someone's definition of themselves (if you're a kind person) or reject it (if you're a bigot).

Of course, nobody here would say that! But the TRAs would.

Itsnotwhatitseemslike · 23/02/2025 15:48

At the risk of speculating on the family too much, it sounds as though the author of the PhD dissertation on an uncannily relevant topic was indeed his mother. And that she is an influential figure in Fife civic / church circles; heavily involved in Pride etc. They are small worlds, these various wee fiefdoms around Scotland… A’h kent yer Faither syndrome…?

Itsnotwhatitseemslike · 23/02/2025 15:49

Race is a spectrum though, isn’t it?
Sex is binary (usually).

TriesNotToBeCynical · 23/02/2025 15:52

Itsnotwhatitseemslike · 23/02/2025 15:49

Race is a spectrum though, isn’t it?
Sex is binary (usually).

Race is largely a social construct!

lifeturnsonadime · 23/02/2025 15:58

Wow I've been away for a few days and 3 threads later.

Can anyone tell me how the EHRC engagement with Fife became public knowledge?

Waitwhat23 · 23/02/2025 15:59

duc748 · 23/02/2025 13:13

I was reading on FB the Indy banging on about some Hollywood starlet I'd never heard of who is trans (natch) and sadly, after losing their passport, has been issued with a new one with a 'M' marker. This appalling attack on civil rights produced a strong response. How ridiculous that 'she' should be required to use men's toilets, they crowed. Well, the situation they are in is of their making, but people who say that never explain how it's OK to allow this person into female spaces, but not bearded r*pey types in a bad wig.

Hunter Schafer from the TV show Euphoria, who from what I've read, was transitioned at an early age. The argument seems to be (as it always is) 'look at her! How could she go into the men's!!!' with the implication that Hunter meets a standard of prettiness that allows him access to the Women's facilities.

But it really doesn't matter how much surgery, make up, hormones he takes or has undergone to mimic his appearance to what he considers the stereotype of a woman - he's still male.

WearyAuldWumman · 23/02/2025 16:00

Itsnotwhatitseemslike · 23/02/2025 15:48

At the risk of speculating on the family too much, it sounds as though the author of the PhD dissertation on an uncannily relevant topic was indeed his mother. And that she is an influential figure in Fife civic / church circles; heavily involved in Pride etc. They are small worlds, these various wee fiefdoms around Scotland… A’h kent yer Faither syndrome…?

Aye. Connections can be important in Fife. Plus she was an NHS Fife pastor at one point, I believe.

WearyAuldWumman · 23/02/2025 16:01

lifeturnsonadime · 23/02/2025 15:58

Wow I've been away for a few days and 3 threads later.

Can anyone tell me how the EHRC engagement with Fife became public knowledge?

I first saw it on the EHRC's X account.

SinnerBoy · 23/02/2025 16:02

Octavia

He claims that he was “ fully out as trans at work “ by August 2022, when he was an FY2, a second year trainee. So very junior, still wet behind the ears.

Didn't he claim to be terrified of being outed at work? If so, how was he out? It makes ever less sense.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 23/02/2025 16:02

"He said he’s not “across all the details” but “I do believe the government supports safe spaces for women and the Equality act, and I think the government should follow the law. I think that is straightforward."

I'm tired of this lazy bullshit from men who have waved women's concerns away for years. Starmer is pushing TRA narratives here. What's a 'safe space' for women? When you disingenuously claim this is about safe spaces, and not single sex spaces, you are feeding into the narratives that somehow women are asking for 'safe spaces' over anyone else who may face risks under certain circumstances. And then painting women as mean/unkind as though we don't care about anyone else, while 'demanding more privileges' than others who are 'most marginalised' - it's all about positioning women as bigots & mean to the poor men.

Women aren't asking for/legally entitled to 'safe spaces', it's single sex spaces. It's so disingenuous & deceitful to reframe the points of argument, because you can't answer a straightforward question with a clear answer. Claiming it's "straightforward" when you're actively creating misinformation on the whole issue by using misleading & incorrect terms/words, just to avoid answering on the key points being made- It's snivelling weasel, spineless arsehole territory.

'Safe spaces' alters the criteria to consider when trying to deal with day to day situations. Single sex spaces are clear 'straightforward' terms & confirm to everyone what the terms of entry are. And it's not all just about safety, especially in the workplace. As he well knows, being a barrister. It's about privacy & dignity too - moving the goalposts to make it necessary for women to disclose trauma to justify the need for female only provision is not the gotcha Starmer & his misogynist advisors think it is.

He needs to be challenged on the language he's deliberately using to deflect from answering clear questions with clear answers.

SinnerBoy · 23/02/2025 16:04

Bloody good post, GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder. He's hoping that people won't realise that he didn't say single sex spaces for actual women.

oldwomanwhoruns · 23/02/2025 16:05

WearyAuldWumman · 23/02/2025 15:37

He was still Theodore Upton and presenting as male when he married in 2021.

Upton looks as if he has had a good bit of Facial feminisation surgery (nose job, nostril width reduction, brow lift, eyelid surgery, cheek augmentation, lip lift?? Just guessing, of course).
He'd have needed time out of view to recover from these. Does this fit in with him missing his graduation ceremony??

lifeturnsonadime · 23/02/2025 16:09

Starmer is very deliberate in his use of 'safe' rather than 'single sex' space.

He's a Lawyer.

He knows exactly what he is doing. Safe spaces can include males.

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