NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

She'll have learnt it at school and university.

I had a random hunt through a few school policies, and a lot of them have something like this (not my kids' school but theirs is v similar):

'The use of changing rooms by trans pupils and students will be assessed on a case-by-case basis in discussion with the individual. The goal is to maximise social integration and promote an equal opportunity to participate in physical education and sports, ensuring safety and comfort, and minimising stigmatisation. Trans pupils should have access to the changing room that corresponds to their gender identity. This approach is underpinned by the Equality Act 2010, whereby refusing a child or young person access to the changing room of their chosen gender identity might constitute an act of discrimination.'

Most of us nod along to the policies that we first learnt, rather than asking ourselves whether they are actually correct.

Also as per the haldane ruling a man who has the PC of gender reassignment but does NOT have a GRC is still a man and has NO right nor the expectation of the right to use opposite sex facilities even the Scottish government accepted that at the supreme crt

What I do not understand is how so many people misinterpret the equality act. The inclusion of gender reassignment, as I understand it, means that you cannot be discriminated against for being in the process of gender reassignment.

It does not say anywhere that this means you should be treated as the opposite sex. It means that you cannot be treated differently (in a negative way) to those who are not undergoing gender reassignment. So someone not undergoing gender reassignment is not allowed to use the opposite sex changing rooms either and so it is not discrimination? So claiming the equality act means you have to do this is just plain wrong......

Have I missed something fundamental?

I just checked the local university policy which is even more categorical than the 'case-by-case basis' for the school one:

'People should be able to use toilet and changing facilities appropriate to their gender identity.'

It also suggests expelling any student found to have 'outed' a transgender person.

It really is inclusion by threats all the way. How is this supposed to encourage any actual acceptance?

No, you haven't. The courts may disagree, but I believe your interpretation is correct.

Ah ok, thanks. Says a lot for her visibility in the role, that i was unaware. I think she needs to be replaced.

Actually, with all the trans activity in schools, and the negative impacts on girls and women, it’s really surprising that she has the role for women’s minister. She has thrown us and our daughters to the wolves.

@0ctavia

It will be the same for Dr Kate Searle. She can’t argue that SP was a risk to patients at the same time as asking her to work different shifts in a different hospital. “being under supervision “ doesn’t mean that someone follows you into every cubicle watching what you do.

NHS management is very stovepiped. Doctors don't manage or discipline nurses & vice versa. Dr Searle will have had no say in asking SP to work in a different hospital. That will have been a decision of the nursing management.

Yes, there was a film of the pair of them at Pitlochry on Twitter.

I used to quite like him but every time I see him now I lose another bit of respect, in increasingly larger chunks each time.

At the risk of sounding like an intellectual snob, the entrance requirements for Dundee are much lower than eg Glasgow … or at least they were when I (ancient) was choosing where to go (and she ducks…!)

Or a while (don't know if it is still the case) Dundee offered contextualised admissions if you were trans or non binary.

I remember that. No proof required, obviously.

Ah I've just checked and they no longer offer that

Obviously @OhBuggerandArse I do hope you're not implying it's all a sham and something people might do to get an advantage 😜

I believe that activists convinced judges otherwise. It is all part of the queering of everything.

I'm sorry, what??!

My thoughts exactly. What on earth does it mean?

In 2023 they did, if you follow the link through from this thread discussion it it seems they no longer do. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/scotsnet/4732934-dundee-university-gives-contextual-offers-to-transgender-pupils (so someone, somewhere, must have wised up).

Agree about privileged, senior women. They are safe in the knowledge they won’t be the lone woman worker forced to use the toilets in the portakabin at the far end of the back car park or the changing room at the bottom of that far corridor who won’t even be allowed to talk about the “new girl” who always seems to arrive behind her in the toilet when she’s there on a late shift…

Yes. It’s clear that what they really meant was “a danger to Beth”

I actually had the sense that ED was secretly quite protective of Sandie, but felt unable to be honest bc of the pro-trans culture of fear.

@stickygotstuck @Vegemiteandhoneyontoast contextualised offers take account of circumstances which may have prevented you performing as well as others in your exams. They are usually for applicants from schools which don't usually send students to university, or those from deprived areas, young carers etc. So to see them used for chancers who say they are non binary or trans was a real insult to the applicants who have succeeded despite real hardship

I bet they don’t!
I can just imagine how that cohort fared 🤣

Alan Cumming and David Tennant are examples of where the acting is great but the real person is an utter cunt. Doesn't mean you can't still enjoy a film or show they star in. I love Mr Gold in the Good Wife.

Same as the new HP series. Some stupid newspaper bint says she wont like any actor who stars in the new series. She can watch it even if she doesn't like JKR. I don't support scientology but I watch films with Tom Cruise in them.