NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

Isn’t it odd how people feel free to make comments like that about GC beliefs that they wouldn’t consider with other beliefs.

Can you imagine the uproar if a journalist went into print saying that they weren’t going to watch Harry Potter because Daniel Radcliffe is Jewish?

It’s

Thank you @Chrysanthemum5 .
I knew about contextualised offers. I just found it, shall we say surprising that you could get one of them for being trans or NB!

I can imagine it must be galling to see in action.

Good to see someone cottoned on. I do wonder from what perspective they were looking at it?

The Scottish press seem very fond of the picture of Dr Upton in the hat and scarf combo 🤣

Whereas the BBC likes to use a soft focus pic with the hair flowing in the wind.

'Stunning and brave' after someone had a chat about how covering most of your face is not the best look if you think you haven't done anything wrong.

The thing is, they’ve been indoctrinated with this stuff since school. It won’t even have occurred to them to check what the law actually says because they’ve been told what is correct. Why would you doubt it, or check it or dispute it, if you were in Isla’s shoes?

Oh definitely!

My "gratitude" to Dr Upton is full of mirth.

In a similar way to Isla Bryson having a visual impact on the public discourse (those pink leggings...), it's basically "when the Dr speaks, the UK peaks".

A male saying "I am a biological female" in court is not going to be forgotten. That this male is a doctor, responsible for people's lives is 🤯

But yes, the real hero here is Sandie Peggie.

You're being much too kind. I'm sure you'd agree that anyone on this forum who's every taken on an expert role has made sure they were absolutely current with the literature (law regs and policies in this case) and recent controversies before starting. And then proactively checked what was going on in their organisation. And sought advice if unsure.

Oh I’m not excusing it. If you’re working at that sort of level you’re being paid to take responsibility. I’m paid what I am to make sure I don’t fuck things up. But we’ve been raised to think critically, I should imagine later generations have not so much drunk the Kool Aid as had it intravenously forced upon them. You don’t know what you don’t know, and all that.

Im afraid you are rather out of date. In fact Dundee medical school has the highest entry tariff of the 38 medical schools in the Uk for 2025 ( so it’s the hardest to get into ).

Dundee was 250 , Glasgow was second at 245 , Cambridge was 6th at 213 and Oxford was 7th at 205.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2024/sep/07/best-uk-universities-for-medicine-league-table

Does anyone know who could speak formally (on behalf of an organisation) about the DBS loophole/problem?

Just sharing this article from the courier today: https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5191940/kirkcaldy-nurse-trans-doctor-changing-room/ (archive: https://archive.ph/q1Yv6 )

Candid states 20 others had disagreed with him using the female changing rooms but didn't speak up out of fear - understandable!
3 anonymous nurses saying how gentle and sensitive Dr Upton is and they don't have a problem sharing a changing room with him so everyone should just be kind!

@0ctaviathat is very interesting - I stand corrected! I’m no medic.

That makes the point, doesn’t it, of just how many women have quietly self-excluded from their own spaces in order not to find themselves the subject of contemporaneous notes or a hospital EDI/be kind investigation?

How many would have spoken up if they’d known there would be no repercussions?

And this is exactly why we need objective rules. These battles shouldn’t have to be fought on a personal level.

If “Beth” is allowed in on his say so, every man has to be allowed in on his say so. That’s what people don’t seem to understand. It creates a precedent. This isn’t just about the individual! The NHS have really failed all of their employees here.

I really think the claim against the organisation is the stronger one here. It seems that the messaging within this organisation was very misleading as to the law.

There have been a few questionable decisions by judges so there is caselaw that can be cited by TRAs that arguably conflicts with what we women on here would agree with.

Dundee has really good life sciences. Prof Sir Philip Cohen is at Dundee. One of his papers was (maybe still is) the most cited publication in biology/biochemistry. Someone I know left a professor position at St Andrews for Dundee. If my children were into science I'd be happy for them to go to there. Dundee does not deserve Maggie Personperson, tbf no university does.

@seXX interesting article thanks for sharing. I wonder (being cynical) how many of those three colleagues who are happy to share with Upton, are the trans identified men we know are working there?

Yes, MC is unsuited to a Rector post.

I think staff and students vote for the Rector and surely staff won't vote for Maggie Personperson (and thank you to the person who came up with that name makes me laugh every time!)

She is a list MSP which means no one directly voted for her but the Greens were allowed to have a certain number of MSPs from their list based on their vote in the election. As far as I'm aware she's lost the elections where she stood as a candidate

Or just very young. It would be interesting to know the age profiles of these nurses! Probably just young 'pick me' girls.
The naivety of many young women... I know that I'd have been one of them. They don't have a clue about male sexuality.

And of course they don't want to side with the older crinkly woman. Because they are never going to grow into an old woman, are they? 😣

That quote in the article, "They said: “She’s genuine and sensitive. If you needed a doctor, you would want Beth to look after you.”" Makes my skin crawl. "Beth" would be one of the last people I would want looking after me, and I can't get my head around the idea that others, I presume women, don't get why some of us would want him absolutely nowhere near us. It feels like coercion and I wouldn't want to be treated by the staff member that said this either if they don't have the empathy to understand other women's perspectives and experiences.

Good point. Probably “biological women” by Upton’s logic, too.

Just to say - the 3 in support don’t mention agreeing to the changing room or whether they themselves use it…. If those are staff who don’t need to use changing facilities then they can afford to be generous?! Well done the Courier!!

I had my first child at Ninewells in Dundee and of all the women who gave birth that night (the unit was at capacity) I was the only one who let a male med student observe labour and birth. I always remember that when people claim that women are totally fine with having male medical staff for intimate care and the ones that aren't ok with it are a minority. That's not my experience at all.