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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/02/2025 14:11

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/02/2025 10:47

Sorry meant to quote @Endthisshit

nauticant · 28/02/2025 10:48

AlisonDonut · 28/02/2025 07:14

Just as an aside, the two clay ghosts I made during the tribunal when the whole thing went down are out of the kiln this morning.

Those are great. I have spooky ornament envy.

OP posts:
Szygy · 28/02/2025 10:56

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 28/02/2025 09:33

You can make archive links yourself if one doesn't already exist.

Yes, I do this a lot, it’s very simple. Just follow the instructions on the site. A couple of clicks and that does it.

duc748 · 28/02/2025 10:58

Great ghost-work, Alison! 👏

anyolddinosaur · 28/02/2025 11:04

I'm very happy to click links to encourage the papers to keep reporting on this.

Carriemac · 28/02/2025 11:05

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/02/2025 10:46

Ive been away but I saw someone on here saying he is now working in anaesthetics ?

Yes, this was mentioned in the tribunal.

He's in a rotating training scheme I think , so they had a few month in a range of different specialties. Minimum attendance mandatory and he will have to make up hours if he takes too much sick leave . It also looks bad for his next job/ training scheme application

Needspaceforlego · 28/02/2025 11:10

KnottyAuty · 28/02/2025 08:29

Bravery - I’m reminded of Millicent Fawcett 😍

Never heard of her, but done a Wikipedia search. Thank-you for raising my awareness. I love a MN school day.

borntobequiet · 28/02/2025 11:12

SerenaSemolena · 28/02/2025 10:13

@Endthisshit I believe there's been a few reports to the gmc. I can't find their comments but think it was just unable to look at while trial ongoing, or something as insipid.

That was their weasel response to mine.

Hoardasurass · 28/02/2025 11:57

Conxis · 28/02/2025 09:40

What makes no sense is if there were no policies in place for changing rooms and transitioning staff what was Isla Bumba basing her advice on? She advised ED that dr Upton could not be excluded from the female changing room. Based on what?
Without following a written policy then IB and ED have acted on their own and can't use the defence of following the policy.
Or is there another secret policy!

Her training as delivered by stonewall and lgbt youth Scotland

NebulousDogBollocking · 28/02/2025 12:02

he will have to make up hours if he takes too much sick leave . It also looks bad for his next job/ training scheme application

Whereas him claiming to be a biological woman will be just fine 🙄

Scottishtizzler · 28/02/2025 12:15

Given that Murdo Fraser is the MSP for Mid-Scotland and Fife and has been very vocal on this case, I’m sure he’d be willing to raise concerns on behalf of constituents in the area over the approach that Dr Upton would take over single sex care with NHS Fife and their Director of Medicine, Chris McKenna, who is the Responsible Officer within the Board (and named on Dr Upton’s GMC registration details). If a patient complains over such an incident and NHS Fife have been clearly warned in advance over this and do nothing, well, they’ll be back in court again paying out more money.

MarieDeGournay · 28/02/2025 12:37

duc748 · 28/02/2025 10:46

Yesterday I saw on of those dumb posts on FB; here's a little sticker you can buy, that says, a transperson peed here and nobody died". They are so cool, right? 🙄I thought I'd respond, "Yeah, give some to your daughters, they can pin them up in the toilets at school."

A counter-sticker saying 'A man invaded a single-sex space here and trust died' would be 99% pointless because it would be mostly women who read it and most of us know that already...😡

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/02/2025 12:40

I don't do stickering because I have a weird phobia of them (don't ask Grin) but I would be so tempted to plop a kJK one over the top.

Hoardasurass · 28/02/2025 12:43

Scottishtizzler · 28/02/2025 12:15

Given that Murdo Fraser is the MSP for Mid-Scotland and Fife and has been very vocal on this case, I’m sure he’d be willing to raise concerns on behalf of constituents in the area over the approach that Dr Upton would take over single sex care with NHS Fife and their Director of Medicine, Chris McKenna, who is the Responsible Officer within the Board (and named on Dr Upton’s GMC registration details). If a patient complains over such an incident and NHS Fife have been clearly warned in advance over this and do nothing, well, they’ll be back in court again paying out more money.

Edited

He's a former solicitor and has been the only msp who has come out to speak with women at every protest for years, he listened to women looked at our concerns and promptly joined us on the gc side.

Conxis · 28/02/2025 13:18

Her training as delivered by stonewall and lgbt youth Scotland

@Hoardasurass are these the organisations some posters mentioned businesses potentially suing if they prove to have given training and information that isn't legally compliant?

SqueakyDinosaur · 28/02/2025 14:12

@Chrysanthemum5 I think it would be brilliant if you wrote to Sandie to tell her exactly what you've told us. Knowing what impact she's having would be immensely encouraging, I think.

0ctavia · 28/02/2025 14:13

Conxis · 28/02/2025 09:40

What makes no sense is if there were no policies in place for changing rooms and transitioning staff what was Isla Bumba basing her advice on? She advised ED that dr Upton could not be excluded from the female changing room. Based on what?
Without following a written policy then IB and ED have acted on their own and can't use the defence of following the policy.
Or is there another secret policy!

I’m assuming it’s what my acquaintance told me this week - it’s the policy of NHS Scotland that as soon a man says the magic words “ I am / identify as a woman / I’m trans / I’m transitioning “ he instantly becomes a woman.

Presumably because he has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

Of course this ignores the fact that the women at work also have the Pc of age, sex , religion or belief. And that the E A 2010 doesn’t erase the 1992 Workplace Reg. Or erase the legal requirement to carry out an EIA.

But that’s the law according to Stonewall so it must be right.

INeedAPensieve · 28/02/2025 14:54

Szygy · 28/02/2025 08:16

Love the Courier not letting this go. That DM article TwistedWonder posted upthread is quite a cracker too actually. It really goes for ‘getting ahead of the law’ and lays it out straight re the possible consequences in terms of compensation that might be claimed by many thousands of women.

Link for those who’d prefer not to click: https://archive.ph/VqoTb

I know this isn't the point of that article but ugh is Alan Cumming friends with Nicola sturgeon? I thought he was better than that.

Disappointing.

Anyway, let's hope more sunlight continues to shine for Sandie.

NebulousDog · 28/02/2025 15:09

I wonder whether the Supreme Court judges in the FWS case have done a bit of redrafting in the light of these NHS tribunals?

Single-sex spaces are going to be one of the first things the new Minister for Equalities in the UK Govt will get asked about. There is quite a cohort of journos who are becoming well-versed in the matter.

DontTellMeWhat2Do · 28/02/2025 15:14

oh yes they'll be aware of these latest tribunals, but whether it impacts their decision making, who knows.

And yes, Dodds resigned for more reasons than she's saying, she could see what else would be coming her way.

0ctavia · 28/02/2025 15:41

If such a policy / guideline / instruction can be found in written document anywhere in NHS Fife ( or NH Scotland ) then it will allow everyone in management to say

“ I was only folllowing policy / doing what I was told by my line manager. IANAL it’s my job to implement board policy not question it . “

And I suspect they are right. If a clinician is told to do something by a manager that they believe will adversely affect the welfare of a patient ( and interferes with their clinical judgement ) , they have a duty to report it ( eg treat that man before you treat that woman, don’t give that patient x treatment ).

I don’t think non clinical staff have a professional duty to report it/ disagree with board policy if it adversely affects some groups of staff .

And of course , the underlying implication here from the HB is that it didn’t affect all women ( which would include DU) , just this one difficult, trump supporting ,stroppy , transphobic, working class , middle aged woman who would not just STFU and do as she was told.

No wonder they are desperately trying to find evidence that she put patients at risk . Maybe the dog ate it ? Or the emails got deleted by mistake? Or the file got corrupted?

If DU suddenly finds it on his phone / down the sofa, he has acted in a way that will put him before Fitness to Practise, as he’s sat on it for more than a year. It should have been reported immediately.

It will be the same for Dr Kate Searle. She can’t argue that SP was a risk to patients at the same time as asking her to work different shifts in a different hospital. “being under supervision “ doesn’t mean that someone follows you into every cubicle watching what you do.

Chrysanthemum5 · 28/02/2025 15:47

SqueakyDinosaur · 28/02/2025 14:12

@Chrysanthemum5 I think it would be brilliant if you wrote to Sandie to tell her exactly what you've told us. Knowing what impact she's having would be immensely encouraging, I think.

Good idea @SqueakyDinosaur and yes @KnottyAuty if the letter works I will post the text here

Chrysanthemum5 · 28/02/2025 15:48

0ctavia · 28/02/2025 15:41

If such a policy / guideline / instruction can be found in written document anywhere in NHS Fife ( or NH Scotland ) then it will allow everyone in management to say

“ I was only folllowing policy / doing what I was told by my line manager. IANAL it’s my job to implement board policy not question it . “

And I suspect they are right. If a clinician is told to do something by a manager that they believe will adversely affect the welfare of a patient ( and interferes with their clinical judgement ) , they have a duty to report it ( eg treat that man before you treat that woman, don’t give that patient x treatment ).

I don’t think non clinical staff have a professional duty to report it/ disagree with board policy if it adversely affects some groups of staff .

And of course , the underlying implication here from the HB is that it didn’t affect all women ( which would include DU) , just this one difficult, trump supporting ,stroppy , transphobic, working class , middle aged woman who would not just STFU and do as she was told.

No wonder they are desperately trying to find evidence that she put patients at risk . Maybe the dog ate it ? Or the emails got deleted by mistake? Or the file got corrupted?

If DU suddenly finds it on his phone / down the sofa, he has acted in a way that will put him before Fitness to Practise, as he’s sat on it for more than a year. It should have been reported immediately.

It will be the same for Dr Kate Searle. She can’t argue that SP was a risk to patients at the same time as asking her to work different shifts in a different hospital. “being under supervision “ doesn’t mean that someone follows you into every cubicle watching what you do.

My lawyer friend showed me the parts of the equality act which say individuals are responsible for harm done if they cannot show they reasonably believed they were following organisational policy. So I expect NHS Fife will be able to shove all the blame I. IB since they didn't have a policy she could have followed

Bunpea · 28/02/2025 16:04

Dodds, and the Minister for Women role reported to B Phillipson. This always seemed strange, I assumed it was just to knock the role down a level in the hierarchy (so that it could be minimised or ignored).

Will B Phillipson try to get rid of it? The tribunals and direction of travel don’t sit well with all the trans stuff promoted in schools.

prh47bridge · 28/02/2025 16:32

Bunpea · 28/02/2025 16:04

Dodds, and the Minister for Women role reported to B Phillipson. This always seemed strange, I assumed it was just to knock the role down a level in the hierarchy (so that it could be minimised or ignored).

Will B Phillipson try to get rid of it? The tribunals and direction of travel don’t sit well with all the trans stuff promoted in schools.

Phillipson is already the Minister for Women and Equalities and has been since the election as well as being Secretary of State for Education. Dodds, as Minister of State for Women and Equalities, was her junior minister in this role - effectively her deputy.

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