NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

Thanks OhBuggerandArse (good name 😄)

Every time I see that photo of DU with his face covered I think that was a really, really poor decision he made to do that. You immediately think "what's he hiding?"

Well, we know what he's hiding, but it makes him look very deceitful to people less familiar with the case. And hiding his face actually draws more attention to it.

Dearest Knotty could we get one of the article within that one with the emails from HR saying suspending Sandie was nuts pretty please. 🙏

I’m wondering how Upton hide facial hair growth as the day progresses in the hospital.

Thanks for the link, Knotty!

Not Knotty, but here you go:

https://archive.is/Zc2eY

(I presume you just don’t want to give them the clicks? Because if you don’t mind that, the Courier seems to be free to read…)

It seems to depend on which browser you're using, @TwoLoonsAndASprout. In one, it was behind a paywall but not with another browser.

I get a massive 'subscribe' popup, and can only see the headline.

I got a pop up too, but was able to close it and read.

Change 'confidence' to 'incompetence' and it makes a little more sense!

As far as this ideology goes, obfuscation and disinformation is their stock-in-trade.

Now look at everyone - the health service, the judiciary: key institutions of the UK - tying themselves up in knots and expending valuable taxpayers' money over the uncontroversial, not-at-all-fraught question of 'when is a man not a woman?'

That people are still butting heads over this shit some 10 years down the track of Stonewall's having adopted the 'T' is testimony to the fact that they're good. You have to hand them that.

I’ll be livid if the NHS Settle DU’s share if the ET finds in favour of SP.

Which, of course, they will. Whilst managing SP out - which already appears a foregone conclusion since they couldn't even wait for proceedings to conclude before hauling her in front of a disciplinary.

They are a disgrace.

Agree re cock and balls. This needs more sunlight, it needs to be shouted from the rooftops.

I've never understood what the difference is between 'gender identity' and 'gender reassignment'.

That's the whole problem (or possibly intended purpose) with this ideology - its terms of definition are as clear as mud.

Good heavens.
https://archive.is/jLbJX

"EXCLUSIVE: Greens MSP Maggie Chapman bids for Dundee University rector job
The campaigning politician wants to build back "broken" trust at the troubled institution."

Yeah, that'll help.

"gender reassignment" originally meant "sex change", hence the infamous Section 9 in the GRA.

It should still mean having a legal sex opposite to one's biological sex. That's the actual law.

But the waters have been thoroughly muddied in Stonewall Law and many policies.

If we assume the existence of gender identity, then one can have an identity that 'matches' one's sex. Or one that doesn't match, but no intention of doing anything about it. In these cases there would be an identity but no reassignment - and therefore no EA relevance.

Ha!, right, so as meaningless as ever. I'd guessed it to mean some sort of surgical intervention, but given 'sex change' is impossible either way then it just shows how the law has co-opted their language.

LOL.

Indeed. You have to assume the existence of gender identity in the first place. Whereas for 'gender identity' I read 'purely arbitrary set of regressive gendered stereotypes'.

No wonder this gets confusing. This isn't even my language.

I heard Dr Sarah Jarvis speak on the Jeremy Vine Radio 2 show last year about body dysmorphia and she was very clear that they do not recommend surgery, that you need therapy instead. If you look at the nhs pages on body dysmorphia this is exactly what they say.

So if you don't like your nose, they will encourage you to have therapy, not surgery, but if you think you would prefer to be a man / woman and cut off body parts in an attempt to achieve this, that's OK? And therapy would be actively dangerous and demeaning?

It makes no sense whatsoever.

This is where I come from. I am a retired A&E consultant which is why I take a particular interest in the Sandie Peggie case. I don't think surgery is ever indicated as the treatment for body dysmorphia which is a symptom of an underlying mental illness. So called gender dysphoria is just a social construct. Despite all the nonsense spoken there is no such thing as gender identity. Surgery & hormones do not change your sex.
I wasn't in the UK when the Gender Recognition Act & Equality Act were passed. I think that the GRA was a mistake & that gender reassignment should never have been included as a protected characteristic in the EA.
All of the above is from my male point of view as approaching the subject from first principles to my shame for a long time I wasn't even aware of the issue of the loss of women's rights.

I have to say that the Scottish Press seem to be doing a good job of keeping this Tribunal live in the minds of their readers. Another article:
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5189676/nhs-fife-trans-tribunal-settlement/

She’s absolutely deluded! Not to mention her academic integrity is appalling. Mind you, they do churn out doctors who believe biological sex is a nebulous concept so she’ll probably do little more than contribute to the insanity

Fucking hell, vipers. Two weeks it's taken me to keep up/catch up with these threads. TWO WEEKS!

A couple of things struck me as I ploughed through the commentary/Tunnocks merch shopping/oven cleaning tips: one, that we don't seem to have any scolders around. Time was that there'd be several around to tell us why we were wrong, including a certain barrister. Have they all given up?

Secondly, how few deletions we have these days, compared to discussions of the past. Maybe the monitors have buggered off with the scolders.

Anyway, as you were. I'll have to mark time out of my diary in July, just to keep up with @nauticant's Never Ending Thread Series.

<waves to all the delurkers>

Oooh Darlington trans nurse denied anonymity for forthcoming ET:
https://archive.ph/Fa9dl

Another one without a GRC