NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

I think when I realised that the reasonable compromise of third spaces was rejected outright because it's not a complete capitulation to an ideology was when I lost interest in being 'reasonable'.

Perhaps I should have worded that that as 'I would have agreed'. But it doesn't matter how reasonable we are.

That's why all this both sides pish annoys me so much.

And also says they should use the spaces where they feel most comfortable and also that women should have single sex spaces.

Has he:

a) Read all the legislation including the Health and Safety regs and knows that this cannot be possible, but is trying to postpone giving a straight answer?

b) Has been given incorrect advice, and hasn't thought it through?

c) Has not thought about the issue or received advice and thinks it will all go away?

I think it was Datun on one of the previous threads who made the point that third spaces are pointless to TIMs. Women's spaces are pointless to TIMs if the women don't use them.

The women are what they need to fulfil the LARP. Upton didn't just want Sandie Peggie to stay silent; he needed her to stay in the changing room as a sort of breathing prop.

Very hard to stay kind when you realise you're basically just, at best, a backdrop to some man's wishful thinking (or worse, a witness to his wankbank material collection).

he needed her to stay in the changing room as a sort of breathing prop.

Not just that. He needed her to be forced to stay. It's a control/coercive/abusive thing. He'll have got off on it.

I am very hardline now because there is no available compromise capitulation is the only option.

But i am also hardline because i believe that a person who rejects their bodily emanation of self, have a serious problem which is more appropriate to psychiatric care.

Observances suggest that accommodating people with this issue does not satisfy or resolve anything for this disparate cohort.

@Bannedontherun
"Observances suggest that accommodating people with this issue does not satisfy or resolve anything for this disparate cohort."

Nothing satisfies them. They always want more. Like an addict.

At one point I thought a third space was the answer but the lack of transwomen entering the transwoman swim races opened my eyes, they wouldn't use a 3rd space.

And a man Beth who'd be willing to walk all over a woman who wants same sex care is hardly going to respect the 3rd changing room.

Your Male or Female end off.

They’d argue that a third space would “out” them and invade their privacy. They want to use their camouflage to blend in among us.

Upton said it himself. He was asked what Sandie Peggie could've done, and he said nothing.

There are only two choices here, use the gents, or use another, dedicated space.

Do people really, honestly believe that women didn't cotton onto that in the first nanosecond?

For many women, before they peaked, it was the instant answer.

It still is.

These men don't want that. Unless women are in it, it's not acceptable.

I’m not exactly sure what the solution to this particular clash of differing viewpoints should be,

No shit.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/why-beth-upton-and-sandie-peggie-are-victims-of-militant-trans-activists-who-harm-own-cause-and-help-far-right-5004585#

At which point why even both with seperate sex anything?

Because to me that's what it comes down to you either have sex seperated or you don't. Man in a frock is exactly that a man just the same as a Woman in blue jeans is still a woman.

I was surprised that he admitted that: that there was nothing that she could have done. That was revealing.

That article completely ignores the other, even larger, cohort whose rights are affected (i.e. trampled over) by TW staff in hospitals - the female patients who want same-sex care and get the likes of Upton if they don't request again and again.

Until people understand this, we are at a disadvantage.

I believe that there have always been some people with gender dysphoria/incongruence.

There have always been people unhappy with their bodies (nose too big, breasts too wonky, hair too curly or too straight or sparse, wrong number of legs). And there have always been people uncomfortable within the restrictions of rigidly divided, sexist societies. But that doesn’t mean anyone is 'really' a sex other than the one they were born, or that 'gender identity' is real. Every society with a 'traditional third gender' is rigidly controlling, deeply sexist and usually homophobic - and the gender allowance props up those systems (and not to the benefit of women). Better to reform the system so the safety valve isn't needed, rather than fiddling about trying to marginally improve the valve.

I have long argued for third spaces and revising the GRA and EA2010 to separate sex and gender identity.

I agree the EA needs to sort out the mess of using sex and gender interchangably. It doesn't currently contain anything about gender identity, and shouldn't (unless and until someone can pin down what it is and prove it actually exists). There's quite enough undefined in there without adding more.

The whole point of the GRA is to conflate sex and gender - you couldn't rewrite it to separate them in a way that would fulfil the purpose it was written for.

Third spaces are pointless if nobody actually wants to use them. At best they're a waste of time and effort. Usually they end up giving men even more than they already had by taking some of women's share - divide the prize pot, the room, the opportunity 3 ways instead of 2 and give men 2/3.

Why don’t we expand the bandwidth of being male?

Thanks for sharing @KnottyAuty I'm afraid any article that suggests Vic Valentine as a voice of reason doesn't have a lot of credibility.

I don't know if Vic will be at the extended tribunal but she was very involved in the campaigns that got transwomen into female prisons and that quote they've used from her is merely her trying to get round the Isla/Adam Bryson problem. She doesn't care about female prisoners they are just collateral damage to her ideology

This, 100%.

What happened to the gender-bending dressing (and makeup-ing) of the 70s and 80s? When everyone wanted to get out of the boxes society had built, not get out of one and jump straight into another one.

GI is as regressive as trad-wifery. It’s perhaps not surprising, really, given that it was the traditional way of dealing with gays and lesbians - being same-sex attracted was horrible and deviant, but if one of you pretended (by whatever means were available at the time - clothes or chemicals) you were the opposite sex, then that was ok. Some countries still enforce this on gay men - become straight or get castrated and live as a woman.

And GI has poisoned the well of the 70s- and 80s-style gender bender. Now no kid can walk around being a boring old Tomboy or boy who likes to wear pink. The pressure on gender non-conforming kids to conform and admit they must be trans is outrageous and makes me unbelievably angry. Where is the freedom in that? Where is the live-and-let-live in that? Where is the let everyone be who they need to be in that?

I'd happily use a third space if they were available. Particularly as I'm pretty sure they definitely wouldn't have any men in them! Until they realised women were using them at least....

If the 'reasonable' approach is to let men that haven't been convicted of sex crimes into the female prison estate then I'm very happy to be unreasonable. No woman should be sharing a prison space with a man. Besides this sort of 'case by case' assessment can't be carried out when it comes to toilets, changing rooms etc and even if they could be done some women are triggered by sharing intimate spaces with men regardless of what treatments the man has had or how 'nice' they are and women's feelings should count too.

Yes a third space shatters the fantasy of being a woman. As does women waiting outside the changing room until he's finished. It's all about forcing everyone else, but especially women, to participate in his fiction, in his role play.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/5189676/nhs-fife-trans-tribunal-settlement/

Any chance of an archive version of that, @KnottyAuty ?

Quote from article

"It is understood NHS Fife has made no attempts to settle with Ms Peggie at any stage, perhaps underlining the confidence the organisation has in its position.
Settling before the tribunal began would have stopped the health board having to fight the explosive case in public."

here you are https://archive.is/Tvmyk

Its so horrible that Sandie has been labelled as a trouble maker.

It frustrates me that there are stil people that think all transwomen have had their cock and balls removed or that this would even make them a woman.