NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

me - so even if they haven’t had drugs and surgery and don’t have a GRC ? The only thing that makes a woman is them saying that they’re a woman?

her - yes, that’s NHS Scotland policy. People don’t do this for fun you know.

[eyes roll like a Vegas fruit machine]

Thank you for that response. I was thinking along the lines of:

[bangs head against wall in frustration]

but yours is also apt.

🤯

'Gender identity' is not a protected characteristic. You could point this out if you wanted to try to challenge it. And surely 'legal sex' should just be 'sex'? If they insist on asking re gender identity, there should at least be an option not to answer. If gender critical views are protected and these include not believing in gender identity then surely employees should not be forced to declare a gender identity? IANAL and don't know if this is how it works though! Hopefully someone on here might have successfully challenged this kind of nonsense on forms at work? I had to do an online form for the application for my current (NHS) job which asked re gender nonsense as part of the equal opportunities questions and it looked like all the fields were mandatory but I tried leaving them all blank and going past that page and the only ones I had to fill to progress past that page were my age, sex and whether I had a disability. So got away without answering nonsensical gender questions. I know many forms don't allow to skip the question though.

You'd think that in schools, safety considerations would be paramount, wouldn't you?

Octavia's conversation illustrates the problem perfectly. Firstly that so many organisations are captured, and secondly that many people don't bother to read the news or just the likes of the national or guardian. Would that friend be an SNP voter perchance?

So Octavia's friend doesn't know: that it is the nurse, not the doctor who is complaining; what 'unblemished record' means; what 'transitioning' means; what the law is.

<Orders more padding for the headbanging wall>

Maybe that’s it. Extreme pity rather than be kind.

So how do we get that type of person to go from extreme pity to, oh, wait a second, some (lots) of them do do this for fun (or attention, or control or…)?

He actually used the words "I’m biologically female."

He did indeed, @MarieDeGournay - many of us saw him say it live.

Bhogal: When intelligent people affiliate themselves to ideology, their intellect ceases to guard against wishful thinking, and instead begins to fortify it, causing them to inadvertently mastermind their own delusion, and to very cleverly become stupid.

Ideology is a powerful mind control and intoxicant.

“She didn’t behave as a senior professional person normally would.”

What is that meant to actually mean?
It's like something Nicola Sturgeon would come out with Men, Transwomen and Rapists.

The days of assuming a professional isn't going to abuse their status is over.
Do these people not learn anything Jimmy Saville, Rolf Harris, Isla Bryson, Prince Andrew plus the zillions of men of the church have abused their position?

Red blooded men are red blooded men!

What is that meant to actually mean?

I read it as she was behaving more like a student union officer than a senior professional, but that may be just me.

People don't do this for fun you know

Please remember Isla the rapist and those young girls on the Beauty Course.

P.s. I didn't know you could quote part of a post

Evening all, another lurker who has finally caught up. I’m in awe of everyone here for their determination to document what’s happening. The level of insight and expertise is something to behold. I don’t have anyone to talk about this stuff with IRL and I don’t think we can really overestimate how important this community is. Courage to Sandie Peggie and all women on the battlefront, whatever form that takes. 💜🤍💚

As an aside, can anyone recommend a place to buy GC postcards? I have a feeling I’ll be needing them.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/why-beth-upton-and-sandie-peggie-are-victims-of-militant-trans-activists-who-harm-own-cause-and-help-far-right-5004585

Thank you Knotty.

I note the 'reliably unwise' Maggie PersonPerson gets a shout out, reminding us that oor Mags thought that the convicted double-rapist Adam Graham should have been allowed to legally change his gender to female. Always worth a reminder.

Nice "both sides" by Ian there.

How can women and transwomen be accommodated in NHS Scotland? Too tricky for Ian to answer.

On one side we've got the majority of the NHS Scotland workforce. On the other a very, very small number of people who could easily be provided with a bespoke solution to their changing needs that doesn't involve being in an opposite sex space. In all other situations there is no conflict.

There is literally no resolving this Gordion knot.

Hmm. On one side you have a highly experienced nurse who was willing to call a man "Beth" and even try to remember to use wrong sex pronouns - something neither his barrister or the judge could always do. On the other side someone who was taking notes of any time someone wasnt sufficiently gushing to satisfy his ego.

Sadly while for the nurse this was just about a man in a changing room Upton wanted to make it much more than that and get her sacked. The Scotsman is still misrepresenting the problem.

Re the Scotsman article linked to above: it contains the words "nothing more than a dispute about where they get changed".
No it isn't, it's about an awful lot more than that, and there's a lot riding on the judgment. But is this how many people see it, ie those who don't frequent this board?

What matters is not someone’s gender but that they are a human being with the same rights as anyone else. Therefore, it is beholden upon society to try to ensure that there is a place within it for trans people.

Yet another commentator who overlooks the demands for additional rights on top of the usual rights and this goes to the heart of the matter.

It's all so difficult to understand... toxic debate... high-pitched voices...

For me a key part of the article is “However, instead of trying to focus on practical compromises and areas of common ground, the most militant people on both sides of the gender debate approach it as a form of war in which they must destroy their opponents entirely.”

This is true. I know TRAs would brand me a TERF but equally many GC people would brand me a TRA. I have on other threads had posters trying to out me as a TRA just because I believe that there have always been some people with gender dysphoria/incongruence.

I have long argued for third spaces and revising the GRA and EA2010 to separate sex and gender identity. Many on here disagree with me.

The reality is, SP has actually trodden a very careful line, she has respected DU calling them Beth and trying to use preferred pronouns whilst being prepared to say “no” to sharing a CR. Most people agree with this nuanced stance where single sex spaces are respected but trans people are also respected. It is the failure of the governments (Scottish and UK) to bring both sides together and work through the areas where rights clash/overlap and then legislate.

Some on here don't agree with third spaces mostly due to space/cost concerns or the view that if there is money available for such amendments, then it would be better directed towards more accessible facilities.

Many (including myself) would agree with third spaces. And given how frequently we see posts from the newly peaked along the lines of 'what about third spaces? Surely that would solve everything?' is not an uncommon opinion.

But the mere idea of third spaces is, as we've been told frequently, is othering and transphobic.

In other words, total capitulation is the only acceptable solution.

And if a 'nuanced stance' includes compelling people to use preferred pronouns, then it's just another example of the demand for total capitulation.

It is the failure of the governments (Scottish and UK) to bring both sides together and work through the areas where rights clash/overlap and then legislate.

Our First Minister declared today that 'transwomen are women'. How do you square that with respecting single sex services and spaces?

Many (including myself) would agree with third spaces.

The other thing is while some form of compromise is always the likely outcome in a liberal democracy it is important to go into negotiations with a firm and principled demand for what is needed. Historically those who start by seeing the other sides POV and wanting compromise tend to lose. (I myself have been sacked as union rep from a cosy health trust negotiation re senior doctors on the first day for being too inflexible, and that didn't go well for us!)
So if this forum largely concentrates on one side's problems, rights and needs, rather than spending too much time seeing the other side's problems that may be a good thing.