NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #22

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It is planned that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21

I have not seen any suggestion that DU exposed his genitals. As far as I can see, everyone had their underwear on at all times. He cannot therefore be convicted of indecent exposure or outraging public decency. The relevant offence in Scotland is actually sexual exposure, but that still requires DU to expose his genitals.

The offence of voyeurism in Scotland is a little different to that in England. To be found guilty, the prosecution would have to show beyond reasonable doubt that DU was in the female CR for the purposes of sexual gratification or in order to humiliate, distress or alarm women. Given DU's beliefs, it might be difficult to prove those things to the criminal standard.

I am aware of that. DU could still have answered the question in Tribunal rather than dodging it. However, this is one of the reasons I say the law is a mess. If a GRC means the holder is legally a woman and is therefore allowed to access female single-sex spaces, employers are placed in an impossible position if they want to exclude trans individuals without a GRC from such spaces.

If Upton is found to have harassed SP will he not need to be disciplined in some way? Suspended/dismissed?

My point is that any male disguising themselves as a woman to enter a female CR should know that they are potentially committing a criminal offence. Their beliefs have nothing to do with it. Just because they are so reckless as to the law that they choose to ignore these potential crimes doesn't mean that SP & other women wouldn't be harassed by such behaviour.

John Swinney first minister has said today that TWAW

Not surprising as what ever he REALLY believes, he can't say anything other than TWAW if his government are currently in court saying as much. Furthermore, to say otherwise would be saying 'yeah everything we've said and done over the past however many years was wrong' and what politician wants to do that?

Utter shambles

WTF!
Doesn't surprise me but I thought he was going to see the light and do some back pedalling along with the rest.

I've just checked, and DrU did not claim to be a woman because of a GRC (which in his case he does not have), or because of being a woman trapped in a man's body, or because he has a 'woman's essence', or had the wrong sex 'ascribed' at birth, or the other phrases we are used to hearing from transwomen who claim TWAW, he actually used the words:
"I’m biologically female."

If he started using the women's CR on the basis that he's 'biologically female', that's not just unreasonable, it's crackers.

He also uses the term 'transwoman', although a transwoman is by definition biologically male.

Cakeism, as a PP called it!

Sandie Peggie has joined the Darlington Nurses' Union.

https://x.com/DarlingtonUnion/status/1894749065205682179

On X today, former MP N Hanvey confirmed that S-A Somerville told him that he should keep quiet about the predator Katie/Lennon Dolatowski. He refused.

For those who don't know, Mr Hanvey was the MP for Kirkcaldy, where D attempted to rape a little girl. S-A S's Scottish parliament constituency includes Dunfermline, where D's child voyeurism took place.

x.com/JNHanvey/status/1894680430399656129

“She didn’t behave as a senior professional person normally would.”

Isn’t that the crux of this whole lunatic ideology? It frames normal social and professional question-asking as hateful.

Asking really? How do you make that out? Are you sure? Are there any downsides? Who’s written this policy? Is there another side? What do other people feel? Is there anything that could go wrong? What are your grounds for believing this? How long have you felt like this? What exactly does the law say? Are there any uncertainties here? Is any of this under debate? Is the law quite settled on this point? Are there other people who might be affected?

any of these are reasonable and sensible questions which could get you into trouble, as soon as you are dealing with someone who claims to be the opposite sex. No one at NHS Fife seems to have dared to ask any of them.

You'd hope so, but that will be for the hospital/NHS Fife to determine after the tribunal has finished.

Excellent points shrinkingthiswinter

The GRA seems to have many internal contradictions, but even the original Goodwin case doesn't seem to make much sense. I think one of the examples of loss of privacy was having to provide details of sex when applying for insurance - but I would have thought that logically, either sex is relevant to insurance, and details should be provided, or it isn't, the request is discriminatory and the insurance companies shouldn't be asking for that information from anyone.

Also, in the Equality Act single sex services are permitted "where they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa)". This seems a relatively low bar, and the test relies on the woman's point of view - but how can that interact with legislation that requires the woman to ignore the sex of a stranger using the service?

Meanwhile, multiple politicians express their faith in the legislation...

I think it would be difficult to discipline DU for following NHS Policy if that were found to be illegal later. However if it’s shown that DU lied or lied by omission to get SP suspended - this exposing the Trust to big financial exposure and reputational risk… well that’s a whole other thing. I suspect that’s what NC is after in the disclosure docs

If I were a TW I’d be thinking very hard at this point about whether to do something with the potential to get me personally named at ET and possibly liable for thousands in damages.

Re insurance, sex isn't generally relevant. Insurers used to be able to adjust premiums based on the sex of the insured, so women got lower premiums for motor insurance, for example, because female drivers have fewer accidents. That was banned in 2012.

I am not aware of any legislation that requires women to ignore the sex of a stranger using the service. The open question is whether the GRA allows a man with a GRC saying he is a woman to use single sex services for women. The current wording implies that they can, but the courts haven't ruled on it. That is very different from saying women must ignore the sex of a stranger using the service.

Ah thanks.
yes, she must have had doubts.

In the absence of something in writing, it was a weak basis to proceed on. Bet she’s kicking herself now.

I don’t approve of it but this is one of the few times to consider the perception not the stated intention of people who want to be asserting a location that is not Malaga Airport when location data pinpoints them there. NB: general comment and not specific to Upton.

No one is allowed to ask these questions.

I had a social conversation today with an acquaintance who is a middle manager in a Scottish health board, Id say a slightly higher management level than ED but not Board level.

She was quick to raise the subject of this case, while telling me that they weren’t allowed to talk about it . Even though she was obviously desperate to do so. This is our conversion.

her - What you should know Octavia is that this case isn’t a simple as it seems from the outside. That nurse has form for being a troublemaker.

Me - Oh really? So the HB lied at the tribunal when they said that she had a 30 year unblemished record?

Her - well that’s because lots of complaints about doctors are not written down.

Me - But I thought that the complainant in this case was a nurse who is complaining that she didn’t have access to single sex changing facilities? And that she had been discliplined for asking .

Her - Oh no, that’s not the case at all at. What you have to understand is that the doctor in this case is TRANSITIONING.

Me ( acting daft ) What does transitioning mean? What are they transitioning into?

Her ( with a straight face ) They are transitioning to become a woman, they have drugs and surgery.

me - so this doctor has had drugs and surgery ?

her - ooh no, we are not allowed to ask anything about that .

me - so if you’re not allowed to ask anything, how do you know if they are transitioning, you know, what you said with drugs and surgery?

her - as long as they say they are transitioning, then NHS Scotland policy is that they are a woman.

me - so even if they haven’t had drugs and surgery and don’t have a GRC ? The only thing that makes a woman is them saying that they’re a woman?

her - yes, that’s NHS Scotland policy. People don’t do this for fun you know.

me - so as soon as a man says the words “ I am a woman”, that means they’re transitioning? And the women they work with lose their rights to single sex CR, is that right ?

her - they don’t have that right. You have to understand Octavia that lots of changing areas in the health service are multipurpose. It’s a very complicated issue, it’s not simple.

me - Do you mean unisex? And what about the legal rights of female staff to a single sex changing room, because that’s the law?

her - no it’s no the law , not in NHS Scotland.

me - but how can the law not apply to NHS Scotland?

her - it’s not just our HB, it’s every HB in Scotland.

< I decided not to waste my breath asking her about EIA and protected characteristics>

Without even a glimmer of insight , she then went on to give me examples of nurses complaining about doctors that were not “ written down “ and how hard it was for a nurse to make a complaint about a doctor.

I report this conversation verbatim so you can see the level of clear thinking, analysis and insight that no doubt contributed to the shit show that is the management of NHS Fife ( and every other HB).

I can absolutely believe it

I’ve said it before on Mumsnet and I stand by it. Scotland is a hotbed of internalised misogyny. This, combined with the desperate but slightly confused civil scramble to atone for the extreme homophobia of the past is one of the reasons we are in this mess.

Unfortunately a lot of people who work in the public sector seem to think that the law doesn't apply to them. My wife was in the civil service for a while in a fairly low ranking position. That particular bit of the civil service had a number of HR policies that were unlawful.

In a rather different area of law, when VAT was introduced in 1973 it was common for invoices sent to the civil service to be returned stamped with the words "we don't pay VAT". Oh yes, you do!

Re Octavia's reported conversation about health care management, I can't help having the very incorrect thought that "Obviously the lunatics are running the asylum there".

I think I shouldn't have said 'stranger' as it isn't really relevant.

My point is how can the test work: "is this a situation where a woman might object to the presence of the man?'" if the objective concept of 'man' is rendered irrelevant by potential possession of a GRC.

Yes, poorly phrased - I meant I would have been surprised had he done so