NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

NC hammered home the point yesterday that nurses have to change at work - considered unacceptable to travel on a bus in scrubs for example, for hygiene reasons. Similarly with toilet cubicles. They could have traipsed to the basement place at the end of every shift, but if they'd all done that, so would Upton have done.

That thread was very satisfying. Both Whittle and White popped up to rattle their gums and were summarily dismissed.
x.com/Broonjunior/status/1888878603967868952?t=kTMeR3h177ZJfzx39b1iGg&s=19

As I understand it, there's a case against Upton personally as well as against NHS Fife, so that could justify it. I hope.

Yes, I'm very much looking forward to her commentary - would love to see her speak to an NHS HR Director (or equivalent) about this!

And he'd have gone whining to KS and had it labelled an avoidance incident.

following your note in the last thread, I used to read and agree with your posts on The Times as JoMarch, commented regularly myself. Then they took anonymity away and I have an unusual name and now I just like all the pro reality (women are women) comments and I don't post anything.
Good to read you are well but if you are facing stress from TRA that's not great!

Same, used to be a frequent commentator in the Times but I'm the only person in all of the UK with my name, so I stopped. I remember JoMarch very fondly :)

I get the impression that Sandie Peggie committed three crimes, one: claiming her legal right to a female-only changing space, two: declining to play 'let's pretend' with a little emperor and the imperial entourage, three: possibly worst, putting making sure the hospital's work was done properly according to protocols.

DU needing to be the centre of everyone's attention was the most important thing for some of those involved.

Warrior - that is such an important point. I completely agree. Worryingly, not only are people in the care sector vulnerable, but 1 to 1 care is normal, everyday practice, increasing the risks even more.

I'd also add that careworkers are also vulnerable much of the time. They are usually employed on minimum wages with dreadful conditions & expectations. Few are in a position to challenge this shit.

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/how-sandy-peggie-dr-beth-upton-tribunal-has-revealed-class-divide-at-heart-of-gender-debate-4991403

Thats really interesting- was it very recent?

And yet the Reddit threads in r/transgenderuk think he's done brilliantly.

I have been laughing at them - they think he's just a witness, that Peggie could yet be found to be a bully and punished, that Judge Tennion could do the punishing, that he could do NC for misgendering - but the level of self-imposed ignorance is actually chilling. They have access to exactly the same information but won't engage because twansfobiaa.

From memory, about 6/7 months ago or so. Undertaken by the Employment team at CLO who are representing NHS Fife in Sandie’s case.

Quick question and sorry if already covered but why are DEI jobs so well paid?

Ah, interesting. I hadn't taken in that there's a difference between changing rooms provided because of an occupational need to change at work, and other ss spaces we might think about (I haven't absorbed exactly what the difference is). I suppose that may be part of why there was all this talk about the basement changing room noone used and how by custom this locker room was used as the changing room. Maybe we should be waiting for Fife to turn round and say "well of course we wouldn't have let Upton into the female changing room, he's a man! Our policy for the locker room is quite different. Oh, people change in the locker room? Well, that's up to them, we didn't know." No sign of that defence yet though and it's a bit late now, given that ED clearly said she was just told he had a right to change in the female changing room.

The salary for the DEI Lead at Fife is low compared to some too! Some are Band 8a - 8b if deemed Principal Lead which would carry a salary of up to £75k.

To signal that DEI is important

Call logs from the phone provider should be possible to obtain regardless of whether or not the phone gets dropped into the sea.

This should show whether there was ever a call from Upton's phone to an official BMA number, or not.

It's very odd the quick response at a time when their office was closed.

How many women have there been like Sandie who have suffered the humility, the indignity, the injustice of suspension, deftly sidelined and ultimately eliminated for holding to truths, not beliefs? Personally I feel the expression of reasonable belief is double-edged, in that it allows a deluded and psychologically impaired men, fuelled by an incestuous and self-affirming TRA community, to "believe" they are females and have the right to do so.

This growing wave of public interest is so warming, as is the many instances of ordinary people vocalising openly their thoughts on the quite-bloody-obvious issue of a smarmy "I have an answer for everything" man, who has happily dug his own grace, using the female changing rooms and intimidating women.

Upton provoked a response, and the response, gladly, was not quite what he expected. Shout outs to everyone on this page, the administrators, @ickky, NC, the Queen (anssuming the rumours are true) and everyone involved. It feels so energising not only for justice to be done, but to be seen to be done.

The jobs will have been benchmarked according to Agenda for Change criteria and found to match the requirements for that grade in terms of knowledge, skills, level of responsibility required etc.

In the Fife case, the job holder had to give advice that's ended up with their employer in court. That'll get you a lot of points when they're doing the job matching.

Oh, did they now? I chanced across it in its early stages, before they'd made an appearance - I'll go back and read the rest, but yes, very interesting indeed.

The Times reporting on the insane salaries paid to NHS DEI leads. The cash strapped NHS who are struggling to provide basic NHS care while rewarding the very people responsible for the Fife case, the women raped on hospital ward by a man claiming to be a woman, the removal of accurate sex based language from health care and all the rest..

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/nhs-trusts-edi-staff-double-salary-junior-staff-pw2jlngj2

https://www.scotsman.com/health/hr-worker-says-suspending-nhs-nurse-over-row-with-transgender-doctor-beth-upton-ludicrous-4991957

Another lurker!

Have watched a few days and followed on here.

decent article in the Scotsman which sheds some light on the HR emails.

https://www.scotsman.com/health/snp-scottish-government-ae-12-hour-waiting-times-4992029

Juxtaposed with an article about needless deaths as a result of A&E waiting times

Archive link for the Times article:

archive.ph/m5mJs

Has anyone on here done NHS England's EDI online training recently ? One of the questions on there was about a transgender colleague accessing toilets and the 'correct' answer was that they were allowed to use the toilet that matched their gender identity. This ideological nonsense is embedded in NHS policy across the UK.