NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #19

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It seems that it will resume on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July but it wasn't completely clear whether it might end a day or two later.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18

This is what is so stupid about ED saying, "I wouldn't put myself in that position. "

The whole hearing has clearly demonstrated that wherever SP went for privacy, DU could have argued he had a right to follow. Their own policy ensured that she couldn't get away. (Plus surely this would have been an "incident if avoidance."

Brilliant article, thanks

A perfect example of stonewall law in action

Swerving slightly I listened to the Employment Law Matters podcast episode with NC recently (the one where she talks about her mother working at Bletchley Park). One of the things that struck me was that she is so posh that she had no idea who Bungle (the hippo on Rainbow) was. No ITV for little Naomi!

Just how the F can this be right!!!

To signal that DEI is important

In which case let's have fully qualified people in the jobs who know the Equalities legislation inside out and know that it's not just opinions about a person's "gender", which is covered.

As it stands they are making a mockery of it.

The thing is there are lots of things that fall under DEI that the NHS should be addressing

For example the appalling ableism from the likes of wes streeting downwards that assumes everyone is physically capable of managing their care through the NHS app, the lack of accessibility of so many NHS buildings

but things like that take time and worse money. So much easier to put up a flag and let mostly middle class men who think they’re women do what they like

Hear, hear.
Plus knowing about relevant employment law (eg Workplace regulations 1992) and - crucially -understanding and respecting the limits of their own competence.

Edited for typo

But if these jobs are so crucial, wouldn’t there be minimum competence levels that includes the experience bit of what we mean be competence? When the average salary in the UK is around 35k, is the value of these roles so great to warrant this, I don’t think so. How can it be possible to get such jobs without a great deal of learned experience I just dont get it. I think it’s part and parcel of HR, who often have specialists anyway in their team, as they are supposed to ensure that employers stay within the law.

I was just going to post something similar. Over on Reddit, the argument is being pushed that the changing room was not, in fact, a female changing room but a gender neutral one and that the single sex changing room in the basement (which no one used) was offered as a solution but rejected by SP.

However, they are obviously arguing that DU is female, so ignoring the fact that had SP agreed to use the basement CR, there was nothing stopping DU from then demanding access to that CR as well. <Not implying that DU would have done so, just making the point that under Fife policy there was no true female CR>

Reckon it’s not just the NHS 😢

Upton has already "lost" whatever the ruling of the ET.

If the unthinkable happens and the J rules against Sandie Peggie, justice is increasingly secured at the EAT and beyond but NHS Fife will want to bury this asap to avoid the morphing public support for the plainly-bloody-obvious.

If the J rules in favour of SP, will JR advise Fife to appeal? I would very much doubt it.

Let's ensure those cameras are on for July, I for sure will be doing my best to encourage the ET that provision is made to make use of technology, a duty of the tribunal as contained in the over-riding objective which governs all hearings.

Maybe someone from stonewall could be called as an expert witness, would be enlightening.

😁😁 I assume though that if you read the small print of anything stonewall advise it’s probably full of "not out fault if you enact this and get in trouble"

But it's DEI so normal rules don't apply.

They will have privileged certain types of experience over others. If it's not a regulated post then generally there's an "or equivalent" caveat for essential quals with no definition of what that means.

I suspect right think/speech will be the most essential.

Thanks to @nauticant and @ickky and the rest of you. I've lurked mainly and struggled to catch up (stupid having a job etc).

Also, waves to the Fifers, especially @CoaltownFifer ! I'm from across the viaduct, where you might catch the train. It's a small world after all.

I was at the Vic for very sad reasons recently and I find all of this quite triggering since I'm still quite raw about it. I have to say the staff I dealt with were really kind, and I have no complaints.

I was sad to read so many stories in the threads about people having bad experiences at the Vic, flowers to all of you.

Bungle is the bear. The hippo was George! #Rainbowasaclassmarker 🤣

Oh of course! Apologies!

I did that and complained to HR that the answer wasn't consistent with the law.

Got a very waffly answer but they did say that the training was under review. Might need to take that up again.

In the upcoming Rainbow 2025 George identifies as Georgina

I can see that a proper DEI officer, one that actually understood the law and wrestled with how to balance the competing needs of different protected groups, would be worth their weight in gold. For example, in a previous NHS role, I worked really hard to try and get a project off the ground which would support adults with Down Syndrome / learning difficulties into paid roles within our trust. It was like pushing sand uphill. A DEI officer who would have thrown their energies into that sort of project would be worth their weight in gold. And the role would be relatively senior to engage at the right level, strategic, and able to manage complex projects.

Unfortunately that’s not the sort of person the role attracts

NC notes still on your phone. Backed up? May be q imps you don't delete them.
DU Not intending to.

I understand that the phone request may not be granted, but I just want to bow to NC here. This was genius...

Also just want to add my thanks to all here who have patiently tolerated so many of us recent peakers over the last 2 weeks.
I have had quiet misgivings for years but the collective wisdom generously shared here is giving me confidence to speak up more. Thank you.

Well of course he, sorry she is pink, so is obviously female. We have been misgendering him her for decades.

I mean it beggars belief if they could suspend SP before they'd even heard her side of the story and done an investigation but they magically CAN'T suspend DU whilst an investigation is carried out about his attitudes to female consent freely given and publicly observed in court.

Trump made it clear on day 1 that DEI offices and programs were to be terminated from all government agencies immediately. Let's hope it's true that when USA sneezes the rest of us catch a cold. We seemed to manage OK without expensive DEI departments.