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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 11:43

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

OP posts:
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11
thenosiesttermagant · 14/02/2025 12:28

CheekySnake · 14/02/2025 12:24

Ed comes across as not that bright, and as having being told in no uncertain terms that no-one was allowed to challenge Upton's assertion that he's female. That's all she knows. You can't do anything that might suggest that Upton is a man. She's trying to answer NC's questions without breaking that rule and the only way is to give answers she knows aren't true.

More willing to perjure herself than commit wrongthink.

It must be a horrible workplace to be in with that much fear of saying the wrong thing.

How can anyone speak up about a patient safety concern if it relates to their sexed body?

BlueLimes · 14/02/2025 12:28

Cluckycluck · 14/02/2025 12:14

Throwing a post in for if there is any analysis of support numbers.

I get rotas can be complicated but can anyone who has dealt with NHS rotas confirm if this timescale is complete fiction or accurate?

Complete fiction.

Rosters are normally completed 6-8 weeks in advance but take less than a day to do. Also people change shifts all the time - there’s absolutely no reason why this took so long (work in v busy acute dept).

Thanks so much for this thread. It’s absolutely enraging, I hope the BMA aren’t so captured that the ignore the lies of BU. Awful person.

SqueakyDinosaur · 14/02/2025 12:29

I reckon the judge will be desperately hoping this will wrap up before lunch and they can all go home. I'm not sure NC has the same view. It reminds me of that woman in the US Senate who filibustered for something like 19 hours to stop some hideous bit of regressive legislation go through, and later revealed that she'd catheterised herself in order to do it.

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:29

NC U wld expect staff to escalate and report to clinical supervisor

Yes

NC Imeed?

ED I dont know the dates involved

NC He shld have done on same day and not wait for next supervisory mtg?

Ask Beth

NC We did.

ED I'm nursing but wld expect quick response if was a nurse

Alienbigcat · 14/02/2025 12:30

Back of the net there from NC!

Boiledbeetle · 14/02/2025 12:30

Ask Beth
NC We did.

I'm just imagining the tone with which NC said we did

BountiesAreUnderrated · 14/02/2025 12:31

I've been absent since Tuesday with brutal workload but I've been frantically reading threads overnight - once again huge thanks to all who have been adding so much to allow others to follow.

I can't believe we've to wait too July for the finalisation of this part. Poor Sandie. Also does anyone know, is DU working currently? And is still in court each day as an observer?

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:31

ED If detrimental to pat care shld have done this promptly

NC This is 3 July email of LC, copied to you: [reads re IX policy, not discussing case] You complied w this?

ED was instruction to others, sorry

NC Y're right

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2025 12:31

Oh NC is setting this up well.

ED is behaving a certain way because shes supposed to and thats whats shes been trained to do.

So how is anyone more junior supposed to speak up and say anything against training because if they do they will merely be sent for retraining because ED can't say no to Upton?

Circular argument time.

Hope that NC is going to the full hog on this.

ED's job isn't to ask if anyone is uncomfortable. As their superior and due to training they can't say anything. She should be acting on behalf of staff in assuming there may be someone with an issue because sex is protected and changing rooms are explictly mentioned in the equality act as an area of exception. ED as the senior person should automatically be preempting this by saying NO to Upton and making other arrangements to preserve the privacy and dignity of ALL staff. Because this is in line with safeguarding training. She has the duty to protect ALL staff and ALL view points on this - there are multiple protected characteristics here. Sex and gender reassignment are BOTH protected under the EA. Religion would also possibly be a consideration in this scenario too. ED SHOULD know this.

She shouldn't be expecting junior staff to speak up to object. Its a power imbalance situation.

This is the whole argument about kids being asked by adults about objecting and there being a problem with hierachical and social pressure to conform meaning there is undue pressure - thus 'consent' may not necessarily be valid.

A manager who had done safeguarding training and has learnt about the idea of consent should be able to see power imbalances and undue pressures placed here.

I hope NC goes down this route in time. Its relevant

GailBlancheViola · 14/02/2025 12:31

ED must be pretzel shape by now the knots she is tying herself into.

NebulousDeadline · 14/02/2025 12:31

I want to know at what point Sandie's solicitor's letter landed. Was it after return to work? Assume (oh dear) going to have to wait until July on that.

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 14/02/2025 12:31

Who would report DU in the CR knowing that the hospital's written guidelines are that he should be there?
By reporting you are effectively questioning the hospital's whole DEI approach
Who would want that sort of pressure on them?
Is it surprising that no one had complained?

SelfPortraitWithHagstone · 14/02/2025 12:31

Ask Beth.

We did.

😁

thenosiesttermagant · 14/02/2025 12:32

Ask Beth
NC We did.

Am hoping ED is beginning to realise that Upton's answers might have thrown her under the bus.

Not least the fact that Upton confirms SP never mentioned a rapist, just mentioned 'the situation with prisons' and it was his inference this related to Bryson. Interesting how he jumped to that conclusion when it's really not obvious to do so - only he can know his own inner motivations for being so desperate to access the women's changing room of course.

Merrymouse · 14/02/2025 12:32

I think ED's answers to these questions have to be understood in light of the fact that she had been told (incorrectly) that Dr Upton has a right to use the women's changing room.

If this was her understanding, from her pov it follows that SP was making superfluous comments about Upton's sex, not simply explaining why he should leave.

What's not clear is why a hospital department would be giving this advice in 2023/2024. In 2023 the Isla Bryson case had arguably contributed to Sturgeon's resignation and the For Women Scotland case had established that, whatever the status of a GRC in law, without one, Dr Upton was legally male.

The UK government cannot continue pretending that current guidance and legislation is adequate.

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:32

NC [reads re SX review mtg] It's right that nurses have to change uniforms as arrive and leave

Yes

NC for hygiene reasons

Yes, infection control

NC Not professional to travel on bus in uniform

Yes

ED [discusses toilets/locker room for convenience]

Bannedontherun · 14/02/2025 12:33

THIS IS A CALL TO ALL STAFF AT FIFE ANE WE KNOW YOU ARE HERE. BREAK THE FEAR COME FORWARD AS WITNESSES ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL YOU HAVE A DUTY TOO.

ALL YO HAVE TO DO IS CONTACT NIAOMI CUNNINGHAM

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:33

So not ideal to change uniform in a toilet then I would imagine.

ContemporaneousNotes · 14/02/2025 12:33

@ThatDaringMintCritic · Today 12:28 wrote

I'm finding it harder to follow today as I don't talk abbreviation. Was there talk of a crowdfunder to get the full transcript?

Might it help to copy (or print) out the list which nauticant helpfully repeats at the top of each new thread, and place the list next to whatever device you’re reading this on for easy reference?

The one in this thread is at 11:50 today.

Boiledbeetle · 14/02/2025 12:34

GailBlancheViola · 14/02/2025 12:31

ED must be pretzel shape by now the knots she is tying herself into.

Mickey Mouse Pretzel GIF by Disney

I was looking for a normal one, but the Mickey Mouse one seems more fitting given the circumstances.

thenosiesttermagant · 14/02/2025 12:34

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:33

So not ideal to change uniform in a toilet then I would imagine.

Yes, 'infection control' on the one hand and 'SP can change in a toilet to make Upton happy, fuck infection control for the patients' on the other.

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:34

NC Locker room shld be to change there into scrubs

ED Not what designed for but used this way

NC Locker room used by custom for changing

ED Yes

NC [reads ED advised re CRs for M and F and SP not wanting to change in toilet cubilce] She's right isnt she for hygiene reasons?

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 12:35

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:29

NC U wld expect staff to escalate and report to clinical supervisor

Yes

NC Imeed?

ED I dont know the dates involved

NC He shld have done on same day and not wait for next supervisory mtg?

Ask Beth

NC We did.

ED I'm nursing but wld expect quick response if was a nurse

ED I'm nursing but wld expect quick response if was a nurse

I believe that this is a standard Scots response to an accusation:
"A big boy did it an' ran away"

And seeing as sex is nebulous that obviously covers male, female, trans and robot

SelfPortraitWithHagstone · 14/02/2025 12:35

Ha ha, @ickky , NC agrees...

Halsall · 14/02/2025 12:35

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 14/02/2025 12:20

Some animals are more equal than others!

There’s another quote for you, @KnottyAuty - Animal Farm, Orwell!

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