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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

1000 replies

nauticant · 14/02/2025 11:43

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

OP posts:
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11
thenosiesttermagant · 14/02/2025 12:35

NC [reads ED advised re CRs for M and F and SP not wanting to change in toilet cubilce] She's right isnt she for hygiene reasons?

Yet another mic drop moment..... from NC. Utterly brilliant.

Greyskybluesky · 14/02/2025 12:36

Agree, brilliant!

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:36

So ED's suggestion that SP change in a toilet would also be a patient safety issue.

Cluckycluck · 14/02/2025 12:37

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:33

So not ideal to change uniform in a toilet then I would imagine.

At my local NHS trust changing in toilets isn't allowed. It might differ by dept but certainly in neonates it isn't allowed

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:37

ED Staff change in toilets for privacy reasons

NC Not a good idea

ED It's their choice. Incl using? room.

NC Sp was right to not want to use the toilet

ED That's her cjoice

NC U tried to get her to work in a diff area

ED That was Jeckie's idea, it's a fairly reg used

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 12:37

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2025 12:31

Oh NC is setting this up well.

ED is behaving a certain way because shes supposed to and thats whats shes been trained to do.

So how is anyone more junior supposed to speak up and say anything against training because if they do they will merely be sent for retraining because ED can't say no to Upton?

Circular argument time.

Hope that NC is going to the full hog on this.

ED's job isn't to ask if anyone is uncomfortable. As their superior and due to training they can't say anything. She should be acting on behalf of staff in assuming there may be someone with an issue because sex is protected and changing rooms are explictly mentioned in the equality act as an area of exception. ED as the senior person should automatically be preempting this by saying NO to Upton and making other arrangements to preserve the privacy and dignity of ALL staff. Because this is in line with safeguarding training. She has the duty to protect ALL staff and ALL view points on this - there are multiple protected characteristics here. Sex and gender reassignment are BOTH protected under the EA. Religion would also possibly be a consideration in this scenario too. ED SHOULD know this.

She shouldn't be expecting junior staff to speak up to object. Its a power imbalance situation.

This is the whole argument about kids being asked by adults about objecting and there being a problem with hierachical and social pressure to conform meaning there is undue pressure - thus 'consent' may not necessarily be valid.

A manager who had done safeguarding training and has learnt about the idea of consent should be able to see power imbalances and undue pressures placed here.

I hope NC goes down this route in time. Its relevant

ED as the senior person should automatically be preempting this by saying NO to Upton

Did I read somewhere she was only a few weeks into post?

Might it be possible that the previous incumbent saw the bus coming and decided instead to call a TAAAXXXXIIIII?

ExemplaryVegetable · 14/02/2025 12:37

I am lurking 👋

I am not in healthcare or any related sector but as an adult human female, and as the mother of a teenage human female obviously I have a strong interest in all this. My Twitter is also going crazy in support of SP

Really grateful to all the posters on here for their commitment to reportage of the tribunal and related things; like a few PPs I have also directed a few colleagues and friends here as a reliable source of information and sensible opinions

Thank you 👍🏼

Bluebootsgreenboots · 14/02/2025 12:38

Briefly de lurking to say thanks to all, and to ask for a reminder on who exactly IB is, ED says she asked IB for clarity on policy from IB. Is it the DEI lead? (I know it's not Isla Bryson, although that's what I see with those initials - definitely a sign of spending too much time in the FWR corner of Mumsnet!)

RaspberryScrubs · 14/02/2025 12:38

Working my way through the thread, thank you all.

NC has been astonishing. I am fangirling madly again

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:38

SelfPortraitWithHagstone · 14/02/2025 12:35

Ha ha, @ickky , NC agrees...

I knew I should have been a barrister. 😂

have neither the skills or patience

SqueakyDinosaur · 14/02/2025 12:39

"Do it to Julia" and "How many fingers am I holding up?" are also 1984 references, FWIW.

CriticalCondition · 14/02/2025 12:39

Does anyone know if DU is at the tribunal today? Or any members of the Wall of Sad?

Or, most importantly, what has happened to the Sad Chairs behind the witness box? Have they detransitioned back to the clerks' office where several people have been forced to hotdesk for a week during DUs evidence? Or maybe that should be hotchair.

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:39

option

NC It was a way to get her back to work. Not attractive

NO, but was a solution

NC Was a detriment

ED SHse chose not to take that option

NC [reads re coming back on days when senior staff available] Why did she need supervision

EP She'd had a diff situation and wanted

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 12:39

Who's this Jackie now? ED likes to throw a bit of blame around, doesn't she?!

HalfWomanHalfHobnob · 14/02/2025 12:39

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:38

I knew I should have been a barrister. 😂

have neither the skills or patience

What always amazes me is the sheer grip NC has over her emotions! I find it incredible.

Merrymouse · 14/02/2025 12:40

"Not least the fact that Upton confirms SP never mentioned a rapist, just mentioned 'the situation with prisons' and it was his inference this related to Bryson."

According to Stonelaw, you can only stop men from entering women's spaces on a 'case by case basis' e,g. being a rapist like Bryson, QED, if you ask a man to leave a women's changing room you are calling him a rapist.

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:40

ED her to feel supported

NC But suggestion she needed senior supervision and might do something wrong

ED No, I see supervision as support

NC [new page] Letter CM to Sp of 28 March which explains day working decision and proper oversight of yr interactions w patients and staff

CheekySnake · 14/02/2025 12:40

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 14/02/2025 12:31

Who would report DU in the CR knowing that the hospital's written guidelines are that he should be there?
By reporting you are effectively questioning the hospital's whole DEI approach
Who would want that sort of pressure on them?
Is it surprising that no one had complained?

And because Upton's assertion that he is a woman is a 'protected belief' and therefore cannot be challenged, the mere act of reporting that he's in there is considered harassment.

Because it challenges the belief.

NebulousDeadline · 14/02/2025 12:40

I am not a nurse, how much "additional supervision" is actually possible in A&E? What would it look like?

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 12:41

Bluebootsgreenboots · 14/02/2025 12:38

Briefly de lurking to say thanks to all, and to ask for a reminder on who exactly IB is, ED says she asked IB for clarity on policy from IB. Is it the DEI lead? (I know it's not Isla Bryson, although that's what I see with those initials - definitely a sign of spending too much time in the FWR corner of Mumsnet!)

Isla Bryson being the DEI lead would explain a few things in that hospital!

snickersbarchild · 14/02/2025 12:41

HalfWomanHalfHobnob · 14/02/2025 12:39

What always amazes me is the sheer grip NC has over her emotions! I find it incredible.

Exactly. I was able to observe earlier on in the week, and her face does not show much emotion at all. At one point I thought she looked rather flushed when questioning DU, but others said it was possible the heating was causing it. She is one cool cucumber.

catscatscurrantscurrants · 14/02/2025 12:41

De-lurking too to express admiration for Sandie's courage and Naomi Cunningham's expertise. Thank you to all here too. I have no one else to speak to about this madness and it helps to be on these threads.

ickky · 14/02/2025 12:42

NC So wasnt about support but feeling she'd do something wrong

ED We wanted her to be safe at work after 8 wks absence

NC Did u see the letter at the time?

ED Dont think so

NC are u aware it's first time she was made aware of poss patient issues

ED I dont know about it

GailBlancheViola · 14/02/2025 12:42

ED That was Jeckie's idea, it's a fairly reg used

Yet another It wasn't me witness theme tune should be this:

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g5Hz17C4is

ThatDaringMintCritic · 14/02/2025 12:43

thenosiesttermagant · 14/02/2025 12:32

Ask Beth
NC We did.

Am hoping ED is beginning to realise that Upton's answers might have thrown her under the bus.

Not least the fact that Upton confirms SP never mentioned a rapist, just mentioned 'the situation with prisons' and it was his inference this related to Bryson. Interesting how he jumped to that conclusion when it's really not obvious to do so - only he can know his own inner motivations for being so desperate to access the women's changing room of course.

Probably the rapist story was a hot topic amongst trans activists as likely to shape public opinion towards the curtailment of trans rights in particular area. No-one has been able to explain (inc DU why this was so upsetting / whether DU's reaction was proportionate). SP did not accuse DU of being a rapist. As far as I can see, at worse, SP was drawing a clumsy comparison. Supposing she had used trans men competing in sports / sharing a changing room.

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