NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #18

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17

(pedantry mode on) the issue is being a Philistine, KnottyAuty, not a Luddite - a Luddite is someone who destroys newfangled machinery. (pedantry mode off)

IB's been arse-covering

Sandie's position is based on fact, I'm not sure it is a belief.
So maybe beliefs trump facts at Fife?

(edit typo, opinion to belief)

That's right. I also like these lines from the same poem

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

If ED genuinely believed that Upton was female/a woman, that very first time when Sandie went to her about Upton in the changing room, ED would have said "don't be ridiculous, Upton is female/a woman and has every right to be in the female/women's changing room". Instead she went looking for official advice on how to deal with a man who declares himself to be a woman using the female/women's changing room. That very action proves she knows that Upton is not female/a woman. Of course she knows he's male/a man.

NC You answered re Beth using CR, and everyone is comfy w situation. That answer shows desire to say the right thing. Y're anxious.

I disagree

NC Again, yr asked re earlier advice and saying no one else had raised and not making Beth feel unwelcome

And she knows we know that she knows!

God her head must be mashed!

Facts aren't beliefs though and therefore not protected. And therein lies the rub.

NC Y're saying the things yr supposeed to say

No. what I think is correct and believe

NC No other staff has contacted you

Yes

NC You heard re being M or F, and sometimes has consequences. Y've heard JR say this is an odd belief and not fact

JR Just said is a belief

NC

I like to think you lived happily ever after as the Milky Bar Kid.

Yes, I think that's highly likely. And discovering this was the first suspension they'd handled makes it even more bizarre. I would be following process to the letter, I can't believe the number of times where they're basically just winging it and crossing their fingers!

JR I just said is a belief

NC U heard JR say this, but most of ppl understand that u cant change sex. U heard her say this was a belief rather than a fact

ED I dont understand what being asked

J I'm not surprised

JR Some ppl have differnt beliefs

Judge being a bit tetchy again!

So am I right in inferring that they suspended SP until the time DU moved rotations and so wasn't an A and E problem? That's lazy and outrageous if so.

Judge with head in hands there.

does respecting beliefs include respecting GC beliefs?

Or perhaps you had your nuts removed and became the Caramel Bunny?

NC V clear that opposing beliefs in this case' JR calls the GC position. The other is GI that only that person can speak to and that trumps sex.

ED I dont understand what I'm being asked

J She doesnt understand

NC It's clear the trust instit position is that GI is what

It's really hard to understand what is going on from just a transcript. So annoyed we can't watch it and get better insight.

🖐…from another Fife lurker.

While this has been going on I have been away on a trip with my male other half - many discussions and reading of posts from this thread, following up with dissection of BBC reports in the evening - pleased to see how he has moved from puzzlement to disbelief to disgust at the whole scenario.

I have talked about this for years but in a personal context - it’s great to have the chance to discuss so many issues in one event.💪and 👏to all involved.

Ooh can someone keep a list of all the good quotes and references please?
I'm trying to track the potential future film cast but I'm clearly missing these cultural references!

ED's head is clearly so full of cognitive dissonance that she has no room left for her medical/clinical knowledge.

Some animals are more equal than others!

matters, and GI assets over sex

JR No, the trust position is GR which is a process and not a thought

ED I beleive shld treat ppl as they want regardless of their sex and SO

NC Trust position is clearly not their sex / body but their GI

ED E&D policy said cldnt exclude Beth

"SO"?