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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/02/2025 15:59

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

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needmoresheep · 13/02/2025 18:09

The CEO and Head of HR for NHS Fife need sacking for this. It has spun out of control as they tried to control a ‘lowly’ nurse.

And I bet NHS Fife Marketing/Publicity team are just crying in the corner at the thought of this ‘good news’ story running till July

NotAGentleReminder · 13/02/2025 18:09

There is, however, much in the NMC code about patient safety, as one would expect.

'8 Work co-operatively
To achieve this, you must:
8.1 respect the skills, expertise and contributions
of your colleagues, referring matters to them
when appropriate
8.2 maintain effective communication with colleagues
8.3 keep colleagues informed when you are sharing
the care of individuals with other health and care
professionals and staff
8.4 work with colleagues to evaluate the quality of
your work and that of the team
8.5 work with colleagues to preserve the safety of
those receiving care
8.6 share information to identify and reduce risk
8.7 be supportive of colleagues who are encountering
health or performance problems. However, this
support must never compromise or be at the
expense of patient or public safety'

And this:

'20.7 make sure you do not express your personal
beliefs (including political, religious or moral
beliefs) to people in an inappropriate way'

Bunpea · 13/02/2025 18:10

Interesting hypothesis RedToothBrush…this isn’t about trans as such:

Is TR just a handy/fashionable vehicle for a contemporary bully, who has managed to find an easily manipulated employer like NHS Fife to support him?

If yes, twenty or thirty years ago, it would have been a different topic he picked for his grievance, but such a person was bound to come up with something to satisfy his urge to bully.

Signalbox · 13/02/2025 18:10

writing123 · 13/02/2025 17:57

I keep seeing references on X to Sandie having turned down a settlement offer. In my own experience of a long-running civil case (but not in Scotland nor an employment tribunal) a settlement offer was confidential and without prejudice, so that news couldn’t have got out. Is this not the case for this jurisdiction, or can we conclude this is likely just a rumour?

Also regarding possible settlement: that wouldn’t help Sandie with the patient safety accusations, surely, which are now in the public domain?

And because they’re sharing representation, wouldn’t Upton need to agree with NHS Fife about any settlement before it was offered (even if the latter were funding it)? Upton doesn't seem to have a conciliatory bone in his body.

I’ve been following along on X and many threads so apologies if I’ve missed these already being asked and answered.

[edited to correct an autocorrect]

Edited

I haven't seen any actual evidence of this. I have only seen some people saying that they've heard from some other people that she turned down a settlement offer. They don't ever seem to link to anything more concrete. I think it's highly likely to be rumour.

Peregrina · 13/02/2025 18:11

What the actual F is driving all this bowing and scraping to the trans movement....

I think that until these cases started to come along, most people thought that TWs were like the James/Jan Morrises of the world. I.e. people who were so unhappy with their bodies that they were prepared to undergo drastic surgery.

Now we are finding that most are not in that category and people, mostly women, are being actively discriminated by the TWAW lobby, but as soon as you protest, the cry Transphobe goes up, and no one likes to be seen as a bigot.

needmoresheep · 13/02/2025 18:11

NHS Fife will probably be hoping that BU moves on quickly.

mumsandaunties · 13/02/2025 18:13

I'd love to know what Caroline Criado Perez would have to say about all of these medics who can't identify any meaningful difference between males and females.

Though she has stayed rather clear of directly engaging with the "twaw" debate (to my knowledge), given that her bestselling books, research and substack are all about the "gender" sex data gap...I do hope this pulls her off the fence.

fanOfBen · 13/02/2025 18:14

LeavingBigLaw · 13/02/2025 17:56

@SigourneyHoward I am not an employment bod but in civil proceedings yes she will have already submitted a statement.

If she is added as R, then C will need to amend its legal submissions to reflect this. If she becomes R3 then she will be entitled to submit a defence and to the extent the fact she is a R impacts her fact evidence, she may be entitled to submit a further witness statement. J will need to give directions on all of this.

I thought this was different in Scotland, and no written statements?

Rightsraptor · 13/02/2025 18:14

Peregrina · 13/02/2025 16:24

Could it be that people like KS had already formed a dislike of the "stern" Sandie Peggie and were taking the opportunity to get rid of her from A & E. Not realising that someone with a reputation for being stern was not likely to take it all lying down.

I am speculating and if MN thinks that is wrong, they can withdraw my post.

I've said pretty much the same on here.

We rational people are looking for, well, rationality in this and 'managing s/o out' seems rational. Unpleasant, yes, but we can understand that.

But if they made all these decisions before even knowing who it was that Upton was inveighing against, I'd guess not.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 13/02/2025 18:14

rebmacesrevda · 13/02/2025 16:46

#rampsnotrainbows

Is it being too facetious to suggest that people request ramps made in rainbow colours to 'demonstrate the NHS commitment to DEI'? Two birds with one stone, as it were.

And paint rubs off over time, going by the state of our local area's 'interesting' crossing art.

As long as nobody starts referring to an up and down double ramp as 'you go over the Rainbow Bridge', it could work rather well...

NebulousDeadline · 13/02/2025 18:15

ED really shocking today after nearly 2 weeks of this already. What the actual fuck did they think occupational health referral would achieve? I'm not NHS, does it cover gender woo conversion? Smacks of reframe your trauma.

RayonSunrise · 13/02/2025 18:16

Back when I used to be on Twitter, I remember seeing TRA-supporting "feminists" warning each other not to read Caroline Crialdo Perez's Invisible Women book because it was "terfy." Yes, acknowledging any sex-based differences, even if carefully researched and evidenced by tons of data, was so dangerous to them they warned each other off going near it. I was genuinely stunned.

mrshoho · 13/02/2025 18:18

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2025 18:07

Head Twats at Fife should role.

But instead it's fairly junior staff in the stand who are clearly well out of their depth.

They head twats will stay like in bloody Rape Crisis Scotland.

But why are the junior (female) staff being hung out? I've not got ant ET experience but I always assumed in these cases that at representatives of the employer would be director level. Is it that we are just seeing the witnesses at this stage? Shouldn't HR be on the scene setting out their policies?

myplace · 13/02/2025 18:18

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 13/02/2025 17:42

Bloody hell. According to this nonsense "sex" is in the Equality Act but "gender" is more inclusive; and "gender reassignment" is the legal term but "gender identity" is more inclusive. Single-sex exemptions and women's privacy, safety and dignity don't get a mention. They're not inclusive enough.

Easy to see why this court case happened. The RCN has EDI starting "conversations" that misrepresent the law.

More inclusive. Less equitable.

Skyellaskerry · 13/02/2025 18:23

Phew just caught up, that @nauticant for the amazing thread work and @ickky and everyone else as well!

I wonder how many DEI leads are busy quietly checking their transitioning in the workplace policies as you can guarantee that so many will state that the person is allowed to use the facilities they want (and sod everyone else). In all sorts of organisations both public and private. As a PP I think mentioned earlier these policies probably tend to be issued without any “launch”. How many women in these workplaces are quietly seething when they do spot them and read them, and, through fear, cannot say a word.

Hopefully the sunlight emitted by this case will allow more people to be able to challenge things.

BiologicallyNebulous · 13/02/2025 18:24

mrshoho · 13/02/2025 18:18

But why are the junior (female) staff being hung out? I've not got ant ET experience but I always assumed in these cases that at representatives of the employer would be director level. Is it that we are just seeing the witnesses at this stage? Shouldn't HR be on the scene setting out their policies?

I do have ET experience as a witness for the respondent, which was an NHS trust and I was a level lower than ED’s role.

It’s the decision makers that are the ones who are questioned.

EasternStandard · 13/02/2025 18:26

needmoresheep · 13/02/2025 18:09

The CEO and Head of HR for NHS Fife need sacking for this. It has spun out of control as they tried to control a ‘lowly’ nurse.

And I bet NHS Fife Marketing/Publicity team are just crying in the corner at the thought of this ‘good news’ story running till July

Where are these people? Will they speak at the tribunal?

myplace · 13/02/2025 18:26

I wonder what the witnesses were expecting from this process? Surely they prepared themselves to answer for their behaviour?

Peregrina · 13/02/2025 18:26

How many women in these workplaces are quietly seething when they do spot them and read them, and, through fear, cannot say a word.

It's not just women - my son feels exactly the same, but knows that if he speaks out he will be branded a transphobe and possibly hounded out of his job.

LeavingBigLaw · 13/02/2025 18:26

fanOfBen · 13/02/2025 18:14

I thought this was different in Scotland, and no written statements?

Happy to be corrected as am not Scots qualified, but have been involved in civil cases there with statements.

Skyellaskerry · 13/02/2025 18:27

Peregrina · 13/02/2025 18:26

How many women in these workplaces are quietly seething when they do spot them and read them, and, through fear, cannot say a word.

It's not just women - my son feels exactly the same, but knows that if he speaks out he will be branded a transphobe and possibly hounded out of his job.

Good point @Peregrina

myplace · 13/02/2025 18:27

I’m sorry, @NebulousHog , that muppets make a hard situation harder for you, and hope the cancer treatment goes well.

The clothes thing, there really shouldn’t be anything to say. Wear what you are comfortable in. 💐

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 13/02/2025 18:31

Placemarking for tomorrow.

JustBitetheKnotsOff · 13/02/2025 18:31

Current policy (updated 2023) for a school that gets mentioned on MN sometimes:

"Trans students can use ‘men only’ or ‘women only’ changing rooms or toilets according to the gender with which they identify. It is entirely the student’s decision as to when they might like to use the facilities which correspond with their gender identity."

No checks, no balances, no need for sincerity.

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