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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/02/2025 15:59

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

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35
Montygone · 13/02/2025 17:38

guinnessguzzler · 13/02/2025 16:07

Thanks for the new thread. Just caught up. Can I ask for clarity about one of the emails recently referred to, where KS is saying 'Dr U knows that we condemn SP's actions'?

a) Is that as bad as it sounds (it sounds to me like they have pre-judged the investigation AND communicated that fact to one of those involved)

b) Was that part of one of the sets of emails disclosed since the tribunal started, or had it been disclosed in advance, in line with the order?

Yes pre-judging the issue and not hearing both sides. Wrong when an investigation could lead to disciplinary action.

NebulousHog · 13/02/2025 17:39

myplace · 13/02/2025 17:18

Could you explain a little more what you are experiencing? I’m not sure I understand. Are people trying to bring gender dysphoria or trans issues into your condition, or are you struggling with it yourself?

It sounds very hard. Please don’t feel obliged to answer.

It's very complex (and I find it all very confusing), but yes, there's a lot of professionals who believe that everyone with DID is transgender, but the difference for me is I don't chose or want to be another gender - gender expression is an unconscious process at times for me and not something I can control or chose. It occurs in a parallel to being "black out drunk" with amnesia so whilst I know it has happened after the event there's no process to chose it before the event.

Therefore, I am not trans. I am female, with XX chromosomes and stick to my safe single-sex spaces. Having single sex spaces is vital for me, my wellbeing and my safety.

I also find the concept around boys clothes / girls clothes etc very difficult as I feel I should be able to wear what I want as long as I am not causing harm or distress to anyone else - same with hairstyles, all of these things don't change the fact I have XX chromosomes.

Peregrina · 13/02/2025 17:39

If all these people believed in GI they'd respond exactly like DU did, saying clearly he's 100% woman simply because he said so and they can't fathom what SP's problem is, end of argument.

Or they muddy the waters by babbling on about DSDs. The majority of the population don't have DSDs.

ThatPithySheep · 13/02/2025 17:41

Peregrina · 13/02/2025 17:39

If all these people believed in GI they'd respond exactly like DU did, saying clearly he's 100% woman simply because he said so and they can't fathom what SP's problem is, end of argument.

Or they muddy the waters by babbling on about DSDs. The majority of the population don't have DSDs.

And as somone with a sibling with a DSD I find it insulting that they are dragged into this. It also drives me mad when people say 'intersex', they aren't a mythical third sex or a mixture of male and female

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 13/02/2025 17:42

NotAGentleReminder · 13/02/2025 17:18

https://www.rcn.org.uk/About-us/Equity-diversity-and-inclusion/Getting-the-conversation-started-about-equity-diversity-and-inclusion/Lets-talk-inclusion-being-the-change

Interesting scenario for 'gender/sex' discrimination at work here. In this scenario, male and female staff are all getting changed in the same staff changing area. The 'gender reassignment' discrimination example is about failure to use wrong-sex pronouns.

Bloody hell. According to this nonsense "sex" is in the Equality Act but "gender" is more inclusive; and "gender reassignment" is the legal term but "gender identity" is more inclusive. Single-sex exemptions and women's privacy, safety and dignity don't get a mention. They're not inclusive enough.

Easy to see why this court case happened. The RCN has EDI starting "conversations" that misrepresent the law.

Lark1ane · 13/02/2025 17:43

NebulousHog · 13/02/2025 16:51

I have an identity disorder (DID) and whilst feral I can tell you that Diversity people will tie themselves in knots with sea urchins to bend over to the (really not important because I have XX chromosomes which take precedent) gender ideologies around this.

The fact that it impacts me physically in multiple ways, oh, there's absolutely nothing they can do about that other than repeatedly exclude me due to it.

I also have cancer - again, pales into complete insignificance compared to gender boo boos.

I am so sorry that you are so unwell with cancer. I totally believe what you are saying about how you are treated by the Diversity crew. They only worship one thing it seems these days. No understanding nor empathy at all for a complicated life such as yours, nor the stories behind DID.

No smoothing the way in workplaces for you, or wearing of lanyards. It's a lonely condition to have, and to need to constantly self advocate.

The treatment of people with DID is another hidden disgrace within the NHS system. The few young aduts I have met suffer so much from poor support. Their day to day lives are so affected due to sheer ignorance. Watching the pandering to this man must be so difficult for youFlowers

Scout2016 · 13/02/2025 17:43

Someone close to me works for a big Government run organisation in Scotland and ran into Gender Woo Believer issues. It became apparent that their HR were either not aware of GC beliefs being WORIADS or vaguely knew something but not the extent. When sent a list of some of the many many GC cases that have been won, they had something of a change in approach to their treatment of the Witch.
So I can believe that ED was unaware, and possibly some of those advising her.

Tootsweets23 · 13/02/2025 17:44

The thing that is so unbelievably batshit is that even his own barrister called him he 22 times. The judge called him he 6 times. There is no mystery. He is a big dude and everyone knows it.

The efforts to turn yourself in knots because you've fallen for a culty fad is just embarrassing.

rebmacesrevda · 13/02/2025 17:45

Tootsweets23 · 13/02/2025 17:44

The thing that is so unbelievably batshit is that even his own barrister called him he 22 times. The judge called him he 6 times. There is no mystery. He is a big dude and everyone knows it.

The efforts to turn yourself in knots because you've fallen for a culty fad is just embarrassing.

Apparently dude doesn't look like a lady

RethinkingLife · 13/02/2025 17:46

Waitwhat23 · 13/02/2025 17:14

Found this interesting -

https://www.nhsstaffbenefits.co.uk/deal/trump-turnberry-stays-nhs-discount

https://www.nhslanarkshire.scot.nhs.uk/pulse-latest-discounts-from-nhs-staff-benefits-133/

If these websites are to be believed, one of the staff benefits for NHS staff is stays at Trump Turnberry.

Police Federation Scotland avail themselves of the discount to hold conferences there (PP found a tweet and reported in on previous thread).

If staying at a Trump owned hotel is evidence of your bigotry, you had better let the Scottish Police Federation know because that's where their annual conference is held!

https://x.com/holyroodmandy/status/1890018362459381921

x.com

https://x.com/holyroodmandy/status/1890018362459381921

RethinkingLife · 13/02/2025 17:49

I've never so keenly felt every word of the final paragraph.

Preference falsification, according to the economist Timur Kuran, is the act of misrepresenting one’s wants under perceived social pressures. It happens frequently in everyday life, such as when we tell the host of a dinner party that we are enjoying the food when we actually find it bland. In Private Truths, Public Lies, Kuran argues convincingly that the phenomenon not only is ubiquitous but has huge social and political consequences. Drawing on diverse intellectual traditions, including those rooted in economics, psychology, sociology, and political science, Kuran provides a unified theory of how preference falsification shapes collective decisions, orients structural change, sustains social stability, distorts human knowledge, and conceals political possibilities.

A common effect of preference falsification is the preservation of widely disliked structures. Another is the conferment of an aura of stability on structures vulnerable to sudden collapse. When the support of a policy, tradition, or regime is largely contrived, a minor event may activate a bandwagon that generates massive yet unanticipated change.

In distorting public opinion, preference falsification also corrupts public discourse and, hence, human knowledge. So structures held in place by preference falsification may, if the condition lasts long enough, achieve increasingly genuine acceptance. The book demonstrates how human knowledge and social structures co-evolve in complex and imperfectly predictable ways, without any guarantee of social efficiency.

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

Private Truths, Public Lies — Harvard University Press

Preference falsification, according to the economist Timur Kuran, is the act of misrepresenting one's wants under perceived social pressures. It happens frequently in everyday life, such as when we tell the host of a dinner party that we are enjoying t...

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 13/02/2025 17:50

Meetings all day - just trying to catch up

With regards the first internal investigation that wasn't - perhaps Fife are claiming it was not an investigation as the outcome was known from the start

Cismyfatarse · 13/02/2025 17:56

Trans doctor Beth Upton ‘had right’ to use NHS female changing room

www.thetimes.com/article/4c0197af-4c57-4b77-8899-0d3e33afe174?shareToken=91fe1ac452257c8c8a41a460c2d29f6f

Latest Times article.

LeavingBigLaw · 13/02/2025 17:56

SigourneyHoward · 13/02/2025 17:12

A legalesque question please,
Do all the witnesses submit written statements beforehand and if so would the status of KS's statement change if she (apologies for pronoun assumptions!) becomes a respondent?
Am just thinking in terms of her inability to avoid hearing anything about the trial and then possibly going for the 'shucks, I don't recall' would be negated by her previous statement?

@SigourneyHoward I am not an employment bod but in civil proceedings yes she will have already submitted a statement.

If she is added as R, then C will need to amend its legal submissions to reflect this. If she becomes R3 then she will be entitled to submit a defence and to the extent the fact she is a R impacts her fact evidence, she may be entitled to submit a further witness statement. J will need to give directions on all of this.

writing123 · 13/02/2025 17:57

I keep seeing references on X to Sandie having turned down a settlement offer. In my own experience of a long-running civil case (but not in Scotland nor an employment tribunal) a settlement offer was confidential and without prejudice, so that news couldn’t have got out. Is this not the case for this jurisdiction, or can we conclude this is likely just a rumour?

Also regarding possible settlement: that wouldn’t help Sandie with the patient safety accusations, surely, which are now in the public domain?

And because they’re sharing representation, wouldn’t Upton need to agree with NHS Fife about any settlement before it was offered (even if the latter were funding it)? Upton doesn't seem to have a conciliatory bone in his body.

I’ve been following along on X and many threads so apologies if I’ve missed these already being asked and answered.

[edited to correct an autocorrect]

WhatterySquash · 13/02/2025 17:58

Tootsweets23 · Today 17:44
The thing that is so unbelievably batshit is that even his own barrister called him he 22 times. The judge called him he 6 times. There is no mystery. He is a big dude and everyone knows it.

I haven't been watching the tribunal just reading about it and I haven't heard DU speak. If he has a male-sounding voice that is a powerful sex indicator that it's instinctively quite hard to ignore. Our brains are sensitive to pitch of voice (it can also carry a lot of information about the likely size and therefore dangerousness of a wild animal).

Has NC picked up on this misgendering? Sorry if I've missed that.

UnhappyAndYouKnowIt · 13/02/2025 18:00

Did I understand right that the judge said the DR's sex is relevant, and JR said they would need to get an expert to verify it?

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2025 18:00

Scout2016 · 13/02/2025 17:43

Someone close to me works for a big Government run organisation in Scotland and ran into Gender Woo Believer issues. It became apparent that their HR were either not aware of GC beliefs being WORIADS or vaguely knew something but not the extent. When sent a list of some of the many many GC cases that have been won, they had something of a change in approach to their treatment of the Witch.
So I can believe that ED was unaware, and possibly some of those advising her.

Not good enough.

Senior management of the NHS are legally obligated to keep track of the law and anything significant which might affect staff or patients.

It's their job. And once they identify this, they have a legal obligation to inform and train staff accordingly.

The Forstater ruling predates this case. It was finalised in March 2022, but had initially started in 2019. This is the type of case that should be followed closely by NHS legal bods because the ramifications for the biggest UK employer are significant.

It's now 2025 and these people involved in this case from Fife NHS still seem unaware of the ruling and haven't admitted a problem on their watch.

BeLemonNow · 13/02/2025 18:01

@CerealPosterHere Perhaps "should". I had an issue where the only way not to have been seen by a man would have discharged me from the service altogether! I was under mental health home treatment team where someone usually visits daily. I was feeling very vulnerable and didn't want to be alone with a man, especially as I've only got one room / bedroom. I spoke to their team manager very distressed after such a male visit and they told me they "couldn't guarantee it as they had a responsibility for my welfare!".

NotAGentleReminder · 13/02/2025 18:04

Cismyfatarse · 13/02/2025 17:56

Trans doctor Beth Upton ‘had right’ to use NHS female changing room

www.thetimes.com/article/4c0197af-4c57-4b77-8899-0d3e33afe174?shareToken=91fe1ac452257c8c8a41a460c2d29f6f

Latest Times article.

Article mistakenly says Upton is a consultant. He isn't.

NMC code - I found it and searched it and could find nothing about 'trans', 'transgender', 'gender', 'gender identity', 'sex', 'single sex', 'changing facilities', 'changing rooms', 'toilets'

https://www.nmc.org.uk/globalassets/sitedocuments/nmc-publications/nmc-code.pdf

https://www.nmc.org.uk/globalassets/sitedocuments/nmc-publications/nmc-code.pdf

MustBeThursday · 13/02/2025 18:05

I'm astounded that an experienced, senior nurse can't pick out ANY tests/levels/treatments apart from pregnancy ones that might be different in males v females.

I'm not medical myself (although I'm married to one) and off the top of my head:

  • Standard treatment for UTIs is different in men and women
  • Peak expiratory flow rates have different charts for men and women
-"Healthy" waist/hip ratio is different for men and women
  • average height and weight ranges are different for men and women
  • Heart attack symptoms often present differently in women
  • you would never need to investigate if a male pitched up saying they'd never had a period. And if a female patient reporting bleeding a few days once a month would be very different from a male patient saying the same
delvan · 13/02/2025 18:05

Very grateful for the scribes and the commentators. I wonder if anyone would care to indulge an old timer idiot in these matters and comment (if you can) on the following things that puzzle me....

Is there a policy relating to trans in the NHS overall (Scotland anyway)?
Is it available anywhere to read?
Is it Stonewall DNA'd 😉

Has the CEO/Head of HR of Fife made any comment = perhaps not allowed due to ongoing court proceedings.

Is management directing the trans policy (if it exists), and holding the sword over non compliant staff.

What the actual F is driving all this bowing and scraping to the trans movement by Fife (or NHS Scotland), to (it seems to me anyway) the absolute detriment of the working lives of women in its employment. Adult human females I mean.

I am really finding it hard to figure out what the reasoning behind it is. Sorry to say I am baffled. But the cracks are beginning to show AFAIS.

needmoresheep · 13/02/2025 18:05

The Head Twats at NHS Fife will want this to go away before July. It is making them look bloody ridiculous, an absolute laughing stock of buffoons.

Our health in their hands does not instil confidence in the NHS.

Hope SP holds out for a public apology before squeezing their nuts (or equivalent) for as much cash as possible.

Merrymouse · 13/02/2025 18:07

Re: Advice from the RCN, that really makes me worry about other concepts they might not understand.

They think gender identity and gender reassignment are interchangeable terms?

Even leaving that aside It's odd - there is a lot about being an ally and showing compassion but not much about getting concrete support from the RCN.

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2025 18:07

needmoresheep · 13/02/2025 18:05

The Head Twats at NHS Fife will want this to go away before July. It is making them look bloody ridiculous, an absolute laughing stock of buffoons.

Our health in their hands does not instil confidence in the NHS.

Hope SP holds out for a public apology before squeezing their nuts (or equivalent) for as much cash as possible.

Head Twats at Fife should role.

But instead it's fairly junior staff in the stand who are clearly well out of their depth.

They head twats will stay like in bloody Rape Crisis Scotland.

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