NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

It's really not just the NHS, and it's not even just adults.

1. The decision to suspend Peggie was based on hearsay and unverified claims, including an alleged patient safety issue that was never documented.

Is this why NC was pushing so hard on the, if this actually happened, it would be bloody awful, wouldn't it?

The dilemma on which they are balancing their horns is that, if it was that awful, why wasn't she immediately sacked, and if it wasn't, why was she suspended?

This Snickers / abrupt manner / lack of comms / she made me do obs, part of this is going to be very interesting.

and yes, it's rather uncomfortable to read what women like ED have said.

Of course she bears responsibility, but on the other hand, I bet she's petrified of putting a foot wrong.

I've been re-reading JR's examination of SP and come to this:

JR On being told of dynamics of u exiting a cubicle, it had been brought to Louise's attention?
SP I think Beth's making it up
JR Other's had noticed this and that's what I mean
SP Y'll have to ask others. I've never ignored Beth
JR We'll look at Dr Sell's evidence who told DU about these behaviours (consultant). They reported these to LC not DU
SP I can only believe she's talked to DU
JR It's not what the doc says? Perhaps she's noticed yr behaviour?
SP I dont know why she's said that. Y'll have to ask her
JR Cldn't she see how you behaved? DU's account in bullet 6 [reads re asking her to continue nurses obs and asked her to do yr job]

Is 'Dr Sell' a typo and meant to say Searle? If so, JR said that it was Searle and not Upton who reported the 'behaviours' (Sandie apparently ignoring Upton and the resus 'incident' where she allegedly left the cubicle) to Louise.

But today ED said it was Upton that reported it.

NC - now back to JH's account of earlier convo, on 3 Jan, it was clear that she knew about the resus incident
ED - there was some earlier verbal dissemination of information by DU
NC - to whom
ED - Louise Searle (I think that's supposed to say Louise Curran, not Searle)
NC - when
ED - on 30 December. I knew about it on 31 December

Looks like there was a lot of porky pies and shit-stirring going on.

Stern: Someone Too Experienced to Revere Nutjobs Nonsense .

I do hope so!

I’m a stern NHS hospital Matron, with personal GC views but if I was asked if ‘Pete’ could access the female CR I would have to grit my teeth and say ‘Yes’ as my NHS trust currently has a policy that states that staff and patients are treated according to their ‘gender identity’.

All our policies seen to treat sex and gender as nebulous terms that mean the same thing. 😡

In order to be covered by the Trusts vicarious liability I have to follow their policies. I have challenged them and will continue to do so.

I had to go to work today and missed an entire thread. Only just caught up after hours of frantic scrolling and I’m now in a perma-rage with the UTTER INSANITY of this whole thing. ED's squirming over how to tell male from female just about sent me over the edge. Ye gods!!! Surely, surely there can be no way this shitshow can go in Fife's favour?

I've been increasingly reminded of working with a full-blown narcissist many years ago. No TRA element involved, but the astonishing egotism and demands for submission to this person's self-absorption is really ringing louder and louder alarm bells. It's enough to bring me out in a cold sweat, actually. There can be no mercy with people like this, and nothing is ever enough.

Have only skimmed the thread due to length, so apologies if this has been posted - but I think the status of the two crowd funders really speaks volumes as to who has the most public support - especially given we know a decent percentage of supporters on one of them are less than genuine 😉

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/comment/scottish-express-referring-dr-beth-34670335?int_source=nba

why they call dr Upton a man as journalists

How very dare you be stern!!!

Good on you for challenging despite everything

Definition of a Stern Terf:
Someone Too Experienced to Revere Nutjobs Nonsense, Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits

Does your trust know it's breaking the law?

I’m a stern NHS hospital Matron, with personal GC views but if I was asked if ‘Pete’ could access the female CR I would have to grit my teeth and say ‘Yes’ as my NHS trust currently has a policy that states that staff and patients are treated according to their ‘gender identity’.

How do you begin to challenge this? Do you play the innocent and ask "where in xxx legislation does it say that this is required. How does it square with the H & S legislation?"

Not that you will get a sensible answer . Baroness Nicholson has been asking these sorts of questions and gets fobbed off with waffle.

Where do these policies come from? Are they written by DEI? Are they looked over by lawyers? I know the whole NHS is rife with this, as I mentioned https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/05/NEW-Delivering_same_sex_accommodation_sep2019.pdf
Annex B earlier, but someone somewhere must be responsible....?

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/trans-dr-beth-uptons-biologically-34659416

interesting ….

I work at a very large and well renowned hospital and we are told not to police toilet or changing room use or question if someone appears to be of the opposite sex to what the changing room is assigned to. If we are not happy about we are to be directed to EDI learning modules. Make no mistake that this would be remembered at appraisals and at future job interviews. ED has been completely hung out to dry here.

Of course it's about good old fashioned 'putting people you don't like in their place'.

We have comments about SP being stern. And having the wrong beliefs.

Her face didn't fit and she was saying things that upset an individual because it meant they might not get their own way.

As I say 'stern' is code for 'cheer up love' for a new generation.

Same old shit. Just differently done to try and get around the protocols put in place to stop the old shit.

I taught both my kids they can wear what they like and have their choice of haircut. I thought that was normal. Clean/fits/appropriate for the occasion were the only rules we had.

I think there is a definite influence in places like the NHS, possibly BBC, other large organisations & Universities etc. from senior level people (board members, committee members, directors etc.) who have a trans identifying child, and are therefore right in the thick of it, and hell bent on pushing this agenda from the top down, on some level to appease their own children.

I remember Helen Joyce talking about this in a podcast or somewhere, that she was surprised at the number of people for whom this was true.

It baffles me that while it might be NHS Fife POLICY, is it the actual LAW?

That's the question I have, and if policy can be just imposed then other issues are open to being dictated also surely?

What am I missing, because I must have missed something, and maybe I have.

To answer a few Qs…

@RoyalCorgi No the Trust doesn’t think they are breaking the law as it’s ‘more inclusive’ 🌈 The head of People Services has been over promoted and is clueless.

Yes @Peregrina I usually go for ‘can you just explain this line’, at least then the Chief Nurse has to justify our Safe Sex Accommodation guidelines in a minuted meeting.

There are internal trust policies @AmaryllisNightAndDay the staff one written by People services.

I will be asking for a review of this in the light of this case but fear we might not get a judgment before Christmas! 😫

How are they dealing with spycams and masturbators? Or are we just pretending that doesn't happen.

I'm wondering the very same. It's all one big hot mess.

I think there is a definite influence in places like the NHS, possibly BBC, other large organisations & Universities etc. from senior level people (board members, committee members, directors etc.) who have a trans identifying child,

I can confirm this matches my experience re: senior levels of NHS England.

I unfortunately agree and its really annoying as I've always found her to be pleasant and friendly she's been able to calm my ds down get him to alow the drs to relocate his joints when he's dislocated them (hypermobility and asd) which is something few people can do

@AmaryllisNightAndDay you asked - Where do these policies come from? Are they written by DEI? Are they looked over by lawyers? I know the whole NHS is rife with this, as I mentioned www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/05/NEW-Deliveringsamesexaccommodationsep2019.pdf
Annex B earlier, but someone somewhere must be responsible....?

My organisation has self ID for access to toilets etc and when I questioned it I was told the legal team had advised this was the best solution as it was too difficult to keep them single sex