NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

To follow up my own question... if she is added as a respondent does she join Ms Russell's squad or can JR say no way jose, you need your own barrister and finally (for now m'lud) if she is added as respondent does that mean more disclosures would be incoming?

Imagine if NHS Fife have managed to potentially out Streisand Upton...

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/regulation/24

Facilities for changing clothing

24.—(1) Suitable and sufficient facilities shall be provided for any person at work in the workplace to change clothing in all cases where—

(a)the person has to wear special clothing for the purpose of work; and

(b)the person can not, for reasons of health or propriety, be expected to change in another room.

(2) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), the facilities mentioned in that paragraph shall not be suitable unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety

(my bold - AS- and edited for clarity)

Interesting that it’s been an all female cast so far, bar the glaring exception. Have I missed anyone out? Is it a male in a dress, a male judge, and a host women around them? Women of principle strength and bravery in a couple of cases, but still interesting sex ratio.

Exactly my thoughts, this whole bloody fiasco shouldn't even be happening. How have people become so delusional. I have a medical background (not a doctor) and am absolutely rock solid in my knowledge that men cannot become women because of what I studied . For this to be happening at the very centre of all things medical (NHS) makes me rage.

https://www.rcn.org.uk/About-us/Equity-diversity-and-inclusion/Getting-the-conversation-started-about-equity-diversity-and-inclusion/Lets-talk-inclusion-being-the-change

Interesting scenario for 'gender/sex' discrimination at work here. In this scenario, male and female staff are all getting changed in the same staff changing area. The 'gender reassignment' discrimination example is about failure to use wrong-sex pronouns.

Speaking of outing Upton, I loved the section of the thread (yesterday? this morning?) where JR prompted him to explain how terrible it would be if he was forced to out himself in other work situations in the future and literally EVERYONE was like, "Oh, mate..."

Healthcare does tend to be majority female, our org is over 75% women.

Could you explain a little more what you are experiencing? I’m not sure I understand. Are people trying to bring gender dysphoria or trans issues into your condition, or are you struggling with it yourself?

It sounds very hard. Please don’t feel obliged to answer.

@ThatPithySheep I bet Trump would love to get involved, not least because he identifies as Scottish!

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and

'Single-sex services

If you are providing a service to one sex only (and not to the other), you must be able to meet one of the following conditions:

1. Only people of that sex need the service.
2. Providing the service jointly to both sexes would not be sufficiently effective.

1. The service is likely to be used by more than one person at the same time and a woman might reasonably object to the presence of a man (or vice versa).

Example: separate male and female changing rooms.'

SigourneyHoward I had a feeling that witness statements are not provided for Scottish ETs. That discussion was many threads ago. She will be required to dig out all notes/emails/phone logs etc for a shiny new bundle.

I was wondering which Trump Hotel SP stayed in; nice to hear they can get a staff discount at the local ones.

Hate monster has returned!!

If a female walks into the female changing rooms and a bloke’s penis is out and proud can any complaint now be made? All he has to do is say I am female and stop harassing me.

afaik the doctor started using the changing rooms before anyone said he could. And even after they gave permission they didn’t tell any of the female staff.

It needs to be sorted.

Sorry to hear about you having to deal with cancer, fellow Nebula.

When ED talked about using her judgement to decide how to resolve the changing room issue, I think that also sounded like Stonelaw - as if perhaps she had been told that men could only be excluded from women's spaces on a case by case basis.

That might also explain their interpretation of the remark about prisons - Sturgeon eventually agreed that Isla Bryson should not go to a woman's prison but only because he is a rapist, not because he is a man.

From our perspective excluding a man from a single sex space is not offensive, because it isn't personal, but from their perspective it can only be personal.

What happened at ERCC?

All the fawning idiots desperate to please and be kind and the dominant character.

Remind me of what haircut they had in common.

Understandably strong feeling of, "Do it to Julia" from ED.

The funny things is, people behaving like this, pretending that understanding what sex is is above their payscale, obfuscating, trying to pass the buck etc is not really a win for gender ideology either.

If all these people believed in GI they'd respond exactly like DU did, saying clearly he's 100% woman simply because he said so and they can't fathom what SP's problem is, end of argument. But they don't. Same with politicians. Do you believe in it or not? If they're all prepared to put it into policy/punish women for questioning it, why do they not appear to be 100% behind it?

God I’m so far behind and still on #16, but have got to the need for an expert to help us establish whether sex exists. Am offering up everything I have to pleeeeease bring Robert Winston to the stand in July (sorry if this has already been mentioned 😄)

Stonewall at my employers. Along with the policy stating that anyone who complains about self-identification being the basis for entry to those facilities being sent for re-education. Plus a comms policy that puts misgendering someone (even a theoretical person) as equivalent to racism etc. So there is no way to complain about unlawful or unjust policies without getting yourself into trouble.

I feel the same, Lord Winston would be brilliant, clear and concise. I wonder if anyone on SPs team can reach out to him.

His delusion that he passes to everyone and the way others around him support it is a thing to behold. I think it's cruel in a way that people are so dishonest with him.
I can't imagine being in that situation and being able to hold up the pretence, or even wanting to. I'm all for mutual respect but I'm never going to agree black is white because of someone else's delusion.

Nah, his old man's side of the family is German - they can have him!

If it's above their payscale, how the bloody hell does someone whose first language isn't English or someone who hasn't had an education manage to answer any basic form or have children?

Or do they just accidentally manage that?

The whole point is about universality. Not elitism.

If gender/sex is an elite concept, then that really does give the likes of Trump / Farage the ammunition to stage the equivalent of the modern French Revolution by highlighting just how out of touch with reality and the general population these dickheads are.

The damage these Muppets are doing goes WAY beyond Fife NHS or a single changing incident.