NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

If that's what they thought, then this case is potentially going to demonstrate it is extremely costly.

I go out for two hours- 2! And come back to find you’ve all moved house again. Right. Back to the beginning of this one.

In this situation, I honestly don't think anyone thought that far ahead. All of this was about keeping Upton happy because that was the easier option. My understanding is that he was a junior doc on rotation, which meant he would only be at that department for a few months before he was someone else's problem anyway.

It is very clear, both from watching him answer questions and knowing how he behaved towards SP, that he would be very difficult to manage in a workplace because he's so determined to find things to be upset about. As he himself said, he knew the female staff wouldn't like him being in the female changing room and he did it anyway. He deliberately went out of his way to make sure senior staff were aware of what he was doing and were primed to support him if a female staff member complained.

What no-one has said is how many female staff members did just quietly stop using the changing room while he was there.

Edinburgh hospital 2 years ago, Mum was waiting in A&E for 16 hours on a trolley after suffering a large stroke at 71 years old.
FIRST question when we eventually saw a doctor, I kid you not:

"How do you identify?".
To a 71 year old, clearly female stroke victim.

She took one look at my face and quickly moved on to the next question.

They are insanely captured in the Scottish NHS.

Recap after this morning and best guess re order and timeline:

1. no advance policy decision on use of Male/female CR

2. no advance discussion or risk assessment before BU begins work

3. chilling effect firmly established so relying on that to cut any potential resistance off.

4. SP encounters BU in CR. Leaves because chilling effect means she knows she can’t complain. Waits outside.

5. SP raises concern with LM who says she’ll ‘sort it’. SP has every expectation that BU will be told to change elsewhere.

6. no word back. SP encounters BU in CR again and is surprised because had every expectation that it would be sorted. Waits outside again. Raises it again.

7. is told nothing can be done to exclude BU so she’ll have to use other room if unhappy. Doesn’t want tp use basement room or Toilet and, frankly, doesn’t see why she should have to because she is working in the understanding that male/ female facilities need to be provided as a matter of law. Says to KD that she will feel obliged to say something to BU if no one else will

8. SP has awful flooding incident. BU in state of undress. SP decides to say something as no one else will — perhaps BU doesn’t understand how she feels? Girds her loins and tries to phrase it sensitively. BU refuses to understand so she goes to another layer of explanation — and she is not an expert but knows that this is meant to be for women and he is a man so ties to engage his imagination with illustration of prison. No deal. And has, as probably worried will happen, laid sufficient groundwork for claim of transphobia if transphobia is anything other that TWAW (I think disproved in Jo Phoenix ET)

9. BU submits complaint of harassment and bullying and all around are running scared of being lablelled transphobic so they panic. They immediately take his word for it and suspend SP because they don’t want to risk another encounter and BU response. In part this is under the false idea that it protects SP from BU but of course it doesn’t do that because process is punishment and for a nurse of 30 years experience with unblemished record this is mortifying.

10. KD justifies this to herself because SP is a bit Trumpy anyway so very likely to be transphic and so the reason she is uncomfortable is not because she has a right to a women only changing room but that she is probably transphobia — this also it is ok to suspend her based on word of BU but is secondary to the panic of a woman having the audacity to say no. There’s nothing in the rule books about what happens if a woman says no.

11. given suspension there has to be an IX. No one senior wants to touch it so landed on KD who should have said no given no experience and no training and also SP LM which is a conflict of interest really. But she shouldered it. KS bulldozes in with forgone conclusion based on the premis that. Without knowing SPS side of it that this is because SP is transphobic — no doubt the Trumpiness being talk of the steamie (always unminuted of course 😀) for non Scots that means gossiping in the halls essentially.

12. No one thought there would be any questions but as KD failed to make progress time was marching on and this was attracting other eyes — eyes they didn’t want on it. Those eyes highlighted (my guess) fact KD perhaps isn’t best placed to lead IX and that trying to organise shift patterns around this issue was a hiding to nothing so they abort and start again.

13. new IX lead needs to justify continuing suspension so wants a formal complaint from BU and encourages drawing out of other more serious allegations to make this feasible. BU obliges. No contemporaneous notes of course as these incidents didn’t happen as described but were driven by a sense of BU awareness of SP non compliance. Even a look would be enough to confirm BU’s prejudice against SP.

14. they have a meeting to confirm details of formal complaint. AG allows BU to massage minute notes and even goes so far as to mask their existence in a round of emails which purport BU is being asked for his sign off for the first time.

15. FC is enough to justify further suspension (I think).

16. ET process begins and J order to submit all docs relating to IX. No one in NHS Fife expected this. BU didn’t expect this. They convince themselves that the wider world is aligned with them and SP will be taken down s further peg so they massage the submission of documents to be just about enough to pass muster re process.

17. NHSFife begins to realise they haven’t really followed process and are getting a bit nervous about ET so offer to settle (guess on my part). Refused.

18. JR is one of them and also agrees SP is transphobia and so that is all that is needed to win. Doesn’t do due diligence on docs and ignores clues.

19. and here we fuckin are!

Who will be on the stand tomorrow? And will it be to SP's detriment that it will be adjourned then until July?

It's only going to be ED, no further witnesses called.

On the previous thread, @NotAGentleReminder wrote
In my trust, for women 11 is the lower end of the normal range!

It’s not a race to the bottom I don’t think, but in my ‘internationally renowned centre of excellence’ hospital it’s 10.

I am pleased and impressed, though, that I can have blood taken at my GP surgery in the afternoon and I can see many of the results in the hospital’s online system before I go to bed. I appreciate that it’s virtually all automatic processes, but it’s good.

BTW, I noticed someone with a very similar username to mine but starting with a lowercase letter posting on an earlier thread. We are not related, that I know of.

Didn't even get a chance to place mark in that last thread because it filled up so quickly. Thanks for the updates. Very frustrating how long this is being drawn out for.

@ChocolateTruffleAssortment doctors net is a very quiet forum but there are some highly informed GC women on there.

And some incredible naivety and be kind.

It's a different crowd to Reddit.

Does anyone know where this idea of "if someone complains then it's they that should find alternative accommodation not the transperson" originated?

It seems to be widely believed by various people and orgs to be The Law, but is it?

That is terrifyingly wrong on so many levels.

Edited to add I also think it's age discrimination because most elderly people don't know what 'identify as' means.

This is appaling, and gets worse.
I'm involved with a court case that was started in Nov 2023 and still going, thankfully judgement will be in May after all evidence is finally in. It's not fun for things to be festering for so long, so empathy and comiserations to SP who will have to hang around for longer than anticipated.

It sounds like Stonewall law to me.

No it's Stonewall Law. The actual law is that changing rooms and toilet facilities should be single sex, but Stonewall convinced employers that actually meant single gender (so mixed sex)

There were also some significant worms that hadn't been disclosed, which came wriggling out of the bottom of the can at several stages of proceedings, prompting NC (Sandie Peggie’s barrister) to marvel at how long and squashy they were and ask if by any chance there were any more that needed to be tipped out... 😁

I helped to facilitate a patient participation group a few years ago. It was for medical students to meet a group of patients who all have the same condition, for them to be able to take histories and examine them. The patients are all in older age brackets and lots of them give a lot of time to this sort of thing - to raise awareness of their condition, to help educate young medics, and for some it's a really important opportunity to get out and chat. They are usually overwhelmingly positive with any feedback. Even when faced with barely articulate nervous teens who ask repetitive and inane questions.

On this occasion one student had asked each and every one of them how they identified when he spoke to them. The feedback on this point was universally negative. Either the patients were insulted, confused, or anxious as to why the student didn't know they were male/female.

The students were told firmly that this was not something to ask due to the feedback. But it was precovid, I wonder what the situation in medical schools is now?

That cohort of older adults won't be any more ok with it though I'd have thought?!

Sounds a bit Stonewall-y

Ah, cross-posted with a few PPs!

I'm not about bravery.

I'm talking about the ability to understand any aspects of NHS policy making and needing policy. And if there is no policy to be formulating one, even if that means going to senior managers.

Thens there's the stuff about following good protocols about suspension and not merely taking the word of one party. The default position is to approach it as an issue of communication difficulties and work backwards from there. Because no one has actually presented any actual evidence have they? And all of this is coming from the head of one party.

This isn't about trans as such. This is all the other bollocks which clearly was too much for her. This could have in theory been about another issue of harassment with a dominant character pushing it.

Then hiding behind the idea that she couldnt tell you if your DNA changes of you have a haircut because she is only a nurse? Seriously? You learn about genetics before you hit GCSEs!

Bravery is irrelevant.

I think someone side it on an earlier thread but this was all done by NHS Fife with the expectation that Sandie Peggie would take her punishment and re-education without much complaint. They never expected that she'd resist or, shock horror, fight back.

Man + Organisation in Positions of Power.

The expectation would be a woman would NOT fight back. Women should know their place.

A legalesque question please,
Do all the witnesses submit written statements beforehand and if so would the status of KS's statement change if she (apologies for pronoun assumptions!) becomes a respondent?
Am just thinking in terms of her inability to avoid hearing anything about the trial and then possibly going for the 'shucks, I don't recall' would be negated by her previous statement?

I think that there will be a large amount of soul-searching within the NHS about making an offer to settle that's good enough to actually get Sandie Peggie to the table.

Found this interesting -

https://www.nhsstaffbenefits.co.uk/deal/trump-turnberry-stays-nhs-discount

https://www.nhslanarkshire.scot.nhs.uk/pulse-latest-discounts-from-nhs-staff-benefits-133/

If these websites are to be believed, one of the staff benefits for NHS staff is stays at Trump Turnberry.