NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

SP’s political views have nothing to do with the case at all. But the fact that the NHS lawyers decided to raise it demonstrates that in the perverse world of the NHS, it makes her the wrong kind of person - someone to be shunned, persecuted and preferably eliminated.

Place mark, thanks for new thread 🙏

@Changingtides1234

It was only due to run to the end of this week but gor a number of reasons they are not going to get through all the witnesses and it looks like July is the earliest it can then start again. Those reasons include:

• The respondent (ie NHS Fife etc al) failing to disclose significant documents
• The above resulting in the decision by the claimant that one of the witnesses - KS - will also be named as a respondent
• The behaviour of the respondent's barrister interrupting and objecting multiple times, nearly always override by the Judge
• The amount of time having to be taken to try and clarify what words like male or female mean to different people

@IDasIX the judge has to decide on all matters of the complaint in his final judgement, so even if procedural matters are an element the sex discrimination, an harassment, and protected disclosure will all have to be ruled upon.

I think with the Trump thing one issue that may arise is that Trump is not known as a great support of women's rights, and he's had sexual misconduct allegations made against him, which may have them thinking they can use her support of him (his policies, and let's face it will only be some of his policies as it's so rare an individual ever supports a politician's policies in full) to weaken her "role" as a women who has been through trauma.

I can also see how the argument could be made that bringing her political views into this could be seen as detriment.

I really don't see why it was raised though, particularly as it seems to have come from her just staying in a hotel (and I am sure that in recent years there have been times when Trump Hotels have been selling rooms at mega discounts)

Meanwhile what became of the claims that patients were being abandoned in A&E, possibly gasping for breath? We still don't know.

One of the difficulties I've found is when I'm feeling like shit 9due to iron deficiency) is that speaking up for myself is so much more difficult.

So asking for single sex care would likely feel impossible when ill even without the Stasi-like atmosphere and implied threat of denial of care because of 'aggression' (i.e. recognising biological sex). Which is why it should be taken seriously even if the patient doesn't say 'stop' in the moment!

Interesting anecdote on the other thread about the Muslim man who got a side room for his wife as the ward was mixed sex. Shows they can do it when they want to.

July.. how depressing

Might be going against the general consensus here but I don't think changing people's shift patterns is ever the right thing to do in this situation, I mean, what would happen if another gender critical woman started working there, or one of the other existing nurses then also voiced a gender critical opinion? Would HER shifts have to be changed too?
What if two people just genuinely didn't get on? Should we keep them apart as well? What if there was a difference of religion, political persuasion, or any number of things where people might be in partial conflict with one another? Keep them all apart in some elaborate rota?

Better to stick to reality, men in men's spaces, women in women's spaces.

BMJ published Cass so i think it's still pretty trustworthy. https://bmjgroup.com/evidence-for-puberty-blockers-and-hormone-treatment-for-gender-transition-wholly-inadequate/

My DH has a doctors.net email address… if that means I can look at the forums I will have a squizz! He is not a forum user so won’t have registered if it’s a separate thing…

It shows they'll listen to a man shouting. Which is what we have with this case.

I use this gif at work quite a bit (privately!). I ask a lot of inconvenient questions, apparently...

Just reading substack ED does contradict herself somewhat. I noticed she said she did not know who the complaint was about until the end of January but says later she did.

In any event you would have to be a follow not to know it was SP since SP complained to her first.

Hopefully she will go home and realise this.

As stated i wish she would go home and realise she needs to say what i posted before as it is obvious she is scared for her job.

#rampsnotrainbows

True - good point.

Can't believe this is going on for months more - poor Sandie!
Her letter through her daughter at least shows she's feeling the support behind her.

Absolutely. I've said this for years. Wearing rainbow lanyards, calling males "she" and using unnecessary pronouns on LinkedIn is popular with employers because it doesn't cost anything. It's a great way to pretend to be inclusive without making any effort

But, I feel the tide is turning and employers will be increasingly nervous about bad publicity of Tribunals

I find it so depressing to wonder if medical students and junior doctors are now trained to ask patients how they identify. So glad I went to medical school before it was captured by this nonsense.

Whilst the procedural failings of NHS Fife in the multiple botched investigations will go against them the sex discrimination and harassment side of the case is not affected by it.
The law states that all work places must have separate single sex changing/showering facilities and toilets. The ruling from fws vs scot gov appeal 2 states that a male who has the PC of gender reassignment but does not have a grc is still legally male and has no rights nor the expectation of the right to enter female single sex spaces.
By allowing a legally and biologically male person (dr Upton) to used the female cr NHS Fife has breached the requirements for single sex spaces and has discriminated against sp and all female staff.

I have also been reflecting on DUs cross examination. Baroness Cass was clear affirmation is not a neutral act. DU’s responses were almost proof that that is true. SP was definitely the little boy in the Emperors New Clothes.

I would also like to say thank you for a certain somebody, she said if i recall correctly, i will stand by any woman in Scotland who calls a man a man.

placemarking. Thank you v much to @ickky for being our scribe!

I have an identity disorder (DID) and whilst feral I can tell you that Diversity people will tie themselves in knots with sea urchins to bend over to the (really not important because I have XX chromosomes which take precedent) gender ideologies around this.

The fact that it impacts me physically in multiple ways, oh, there's absolutely nothing they can do about that other than repeatedly exclude me due to it.

I also have cancer - again, pales into complete insignificance compared to gender boo boos.

Thank you ickky and naut and everyone.

Crikey at today's proceedings.