NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

ED U need to ask Melanie
'Do it to Melanie'😀

Yes, this is what I'm getting from TT too. It was the flimsiest of reasons, that they hadn't properly investigated and had not - at that point - even escalated to a formal complaint for a full suspension.

Basically DU said 'I don't like the way she looks at me and the fact she doesn't want men in women's spaces' TRANSPHOBIA and then she was suspended.

She is digging that hole for herself awful quick and very deep.

ED Our concern was SP leaving a cubicle

NC The response to MJ (or MG) who agrees that no evidence SP left a bay, only presumably Beth's perception. Never had concerns re SP before. Staffing crisis and what if a similar incident in another area

ED Yes, I did say that

I am incandescent that Fife had tried to have this heard in private so we wouldn’t be able to see their incompetence

Me too. And now we see why.

Fair, I haven't read it & it was a kneejerk 'yuck' response - you're correct :)

ED It cld have happened anywhere in the dept

NC If issue was the CR, it cld only happen in a supposedly SS space

ED I cldnt determine where incidents might happen. I was worried re CR and pat care issues

NC HR think no evidence for 2 missing issues, so only worry re CR/SS

Nice use of Beth's perception - I wish I could actually hear how NC spoke the words

I'm gobsmacked that they dared to accuse Sandie of being vexatious.

They are total arseholes.

Me too

Just rejoining .... agree here Boiled... stopped in thread 15 to watch incredible transwidows film. Going out now! Will return to thread whatever it is next time in an hour or two

Yes - the money will probably be less than the costs of the further 5 days of hearing! I’d also be wanting an admission of the claims in full, an apology, reassurance that this will never happen again and an undertaking that no male will be permitted in woman’s spaces, trans ID, GRC or not.

ED No IX so cant say.

NC No prev concerns re SP?

ED Just the one above

NC Only Beth saying re missing issues?

ED Wld have to be Beth and no IX to say otherwise. Wld be part of the IX

NC Might only be one person, but no corroboration to u or HR

ED No other person reported

NC No one asked SP

ED For the IX

NC Never mentioned in call

ED Ask LC

NC Nor the SX meeting? She wasnt told as only discussed the CR issue

ED The CR incident was brought to light first

NC U said yday u learnt of both at same time

NC [reads re IX process] You didnt sent a template for statement to DU
ED No as I didnt progress the IX but asked Beth to put it in writing
NC But the official way is the template
ED That was to determine what I had to IX as hadnt gone down formal IX process at that point

NC Did u tell SP u were the IX manager at that mtg?
ED Dont recall
NC U didnt as she didnt know until recently
ED I referred her to help and support and looked at possible witnesses. I didnt commence the IX.
NC Doc on IX planning, giving advice re B&H...sorry look at next

NC para. She didnt get that did she?
ED I dint commence the IX so didnt do any of this
NC So no orig IX mtg w SP
ED Checked she was stable so cld be interviewed
NC This wld be the path for alleged conduct IX
ED This didnt happen under me. It didnt happen, no

Ha, there's quite a difference between ED evidence yesterday and her evidence today.

I assume JR has now had a word with her!

"Remember, it was an investigation, but it wasn't an investigation investigation! You were investigating, but you weren't an investigator"

NC has timed this perfectly. All the respondents are going to be stuck in limbo for months.

Oh dear. It's the process, isn't it.

Am just misunderstanding TT, but is ED saying that HR didn't support DU assertions about patients safely?

NC Evid precipitated by CR issue and brought other issues to light then too

ED Yes. Was part of the same thing

NC BY end of convo w Jackie, GM said SP shld be SX for patient safety

ED Needed palnning for an IX and to prevent further incidents

NC U cld have said special leave

May I remind the jury that yesterday, ED said it was on 31/12 that she heard about the resus incident (thread 16, page 38. Ickky 15:57 TT post)

I'm imagining lots of internal screaming inside EDs head right now as she realises what position she has put herself in. She must realise she and the rest of them did a biased very one sided totally discriminatory piss poor job of the whole thing by now.

bit of a derail here to say that this is the THIRD case of a poster coming back and saying - yep, on reflection, I want to rethink what I posted earlier.
With speed and good grace.
i❤that on FWR, it's rare online!

NC Yr answer to AG [new page] you say re suspension and bringing SP in. You phoned her on the 3rd, and made clear it was just a convo and not a formal part of the process
ED I made it clear to come in
NC TU rep
NC She said she was happy w/out rep
NC But she cldnt expect one

That’s so awful, that was the meeting that she was suspended at, clearly with no warning that it was even a possibility.

Ah but it has backfired so much - their refusal has just made them look even worse.

Pendulum effect - pushing the light away from themselves then when it swings back it's even brighter and more and more onlookers are gathering

whilst we work out rotas

ED These rotas are very complex. ^ wks in advance to work out

NC KS seems to think this was feasible. See her email of 30 Dec: [reads re not having same shifts and KS thinks she's sorted]

ED KS has no responsibility for med rostas nor nursing