NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

I think these are different questions. She went up the chain to ask as advice and passed on EDI presumption but when the decision came for an IX, KD was told she would be leading the IX. Three weeks in and with no training she could have said no to the role of lead in IX — and should have done. When the suspension was continuing it caught the attention of others and the shift pattern ‘solution’ of avoidance was always going to take then on a hiding to nothing so I suspect someone higher up the chain realised that to justify further extensive soon they needed a more significant complaint because they did not want to risk the consequences of BU encountering a woman willing to say no again. That’s when KD was replaced and the new lead IX had enough experience to be willing to cook the books, as it were, with BU.

so I agree KD should have refused lead on IX and perhaps NC will uncover who pressured her to do so.

It's David Spiers, the 'Gender Critical Piper'. ❤Video here:

https://x.com/ForWomenScot/status/1890345730440659181

Yes, and just going back to Sandie going into the changing room and finding him there in trousers and a bra . . .

Most women get changed as quickly as possible, with as little exposure as possible. I certainly wouldn't want to spend long in just a bra - I'd get my top on as quickly as possible.

But then, I'm a woman.

I wonder how long Dr U had to stand there admiring himself in his bra before someone walked in? (speculation m'lud)

NC Did u tell SP u were the IX manager at that mtg?

ED Dont recall

NC U didnt as she didnt know until recently

ED I referred her to help and support and looked at possible witnesses. I didnt commence the IX.

NC Doc on IX planning, giving advice re B&H...sorry look at next

Yep:

This exchange is problematic for her:
NC We were talking yday about KS's emails ref to full support of nursing team. Did this concern u re the IX?
ED No. I didnt take advice from HR over this
NC Did u think u shld be
ED I assumed KS wld be called for evidence

Fatal. She assumed.

I had it drilled into me about the word assume and how it leaves you exposed to looking stupid.

She didn't seek appropriate advice to cover her own arse. She can be thrown up the bus. And reversed over.

Love it! Anyone recognise the tune he chose? I'm guessing there was a message!

Fucking ridiculous old bat that I am I've just burst into tears watching that 🥲

NC para. She didnt get that did she?

ED I dint commence the IX so didnt do any of this

NC So no orig IX mtg w SP

ED Checked she was stable so cld be interviewed

NC This wld be the path for alleged conduct IX

ED This didnt happen under me. It didnt happen, no

There's a video too! (of Sandie being piped into court on the final day). Just beautiful. Thank you Sandie.

x.com/BeccaFirebird/status/1890350284104151404

Has someone told ED to backtrack about being IX investigator since yesterday - she seems to be denying it today but says she was yesterday

That’s wonderful but also I’m so fucking furious that women like Sandie have to do this just to allow us to keep some basic privacy & dignity

so yesterday, she was conducting an investigation, but overnight she realised (was directed to) say not me guv?

Ah me too x

Which is why she has a terrible decision to make now. Do the bidding of the NHS now when she probably suspects they're going to throw her under the bus or open up in the hearing about the pressures she was under, and the influence applied by others to the investigation process.

to settle will usually mean a public expression of wrongdoing and apology. But the NHS is joint with Upton- can't see him apologising and admitting he lied about incidents to get her sacked, as he would face being struck off.

This is looking like ED was bloody relieved when she had to stop being part of the investigation and just washed her hands of it, not giving a flying fuck about Sandie in the process.

NC Yr answer to AG [new page] you say re suspension and bringing SP in. You phoned her on the 3rd, and made clear it was just a convo and not a formal part of the process

ED I made it clear to come in

NC TU rep

NC She said she was happy w/out rep

NC But she cldnt expect one

I very much get that impression, although the reporting is a highly shortened version.

to be on hand though?

ED Correct

NC She thought an informal chat, but found you and AS. She asked if needed a rep and u said not this time but next time

ED Absolutely not

NC If u are right and offered her a chose. It isnt fair on her is it?

So SP was invited in for a chat that was really a suspension meeting? Didn't have full info to reject union rep

disingenuous of ED

The pipes get you like that. The GC piper often turns up at events, he's a star.

ED She was given the option for union rep

NC [find different page] Look again at terms of ref re CR, that's not a pat safety matter

ED No

NC You told the ET that patient safety concerns..

ED Also the safety of SP and Beth

NC What are unsafe from?

ED Further interaction,

perhaps unprof behaviour, as potential w leaving patient

NC Yr aware suspension a last resort

ED Yes

NC When Sx an AE nurse in pressed service u need to think long and hard

ED Yes, not an easy decision to make

I thought that sp was the one in her bra and trousers when du walked in

I think there should be the option to revoke GRCs as well, for people who have clearly not obtained one in the circumstances envisaged. Such as a woman who even at the time of getting a GRC to legallybe a man, but fully intends to get pregnant and give birth to a child.