NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

Do we know anything about @FayeRC 's tribunal?

I say her comment on an earlier thread but was heavily distracted and would love to show her some support, and to find out if its also a tribunal we can follow.

Hope I've got her name right with my tagging

J Any preliminaries?

NC We were talking yday about KS's emails ref to full support of nursing team. Did this concern u re the IX?

ED No. I didnt take advice from HR over this

NC Did u think u shld be

ED I assumed KS wld be called for evidence

NC Might she affect others evid

Despite that fact that the reference ranges ARE different for MANY blood parameters, what about basic things like the presentation of the patient?

Young androgenous looking person presents in A&E with abdominal pain. Are we going to run every test for that patient? Are we going to do a full pelvic scan just on the off chance that this person may have ovaries and a uterus and may be having a miscarriage or a ruptured ovarian cyst or a massive uterine fibroid or worse?
Or are we just going to ask them what sex they are to instantly rule in/out those things?

Would Dr Upton just run the pelvic scan anyway, just in case? I mean, sex is nebulous right?
Or would the nurse who thinks clothes can change a person's DNA help out with the scan because the person might have grown ovaries if they sat too close to a pink pair of pants?

Here we go

Search online for crowdjustice Protect Single-Sex Facilities at Work by Faye Russell-Caldicott

ED No, as no-one else saw the emails

NC U saw it tho

ED I was copied in but didnt respond to it

NC Email [reads re writing statement] Is it approp that KS was go between between R and DU

ED There's an email showing I chose to communicate directly w Beth

Just to repeat my comment upthread. I think the only explanation of ED's behaviour is that she thinks the repercussions for not going along with the unscientific TRA ideology endorsed by NHS Fife ('rightthink') will be worse than perjuring herself in court.

That's pretty worrying.

This one, could do with some support.

Thank you. I'm on it ❤️

"Not one delegate spoke against". Of course they didn't! They can't!

Loving the comments underneath though.

I wish they’d cover this on an episode.

Where are you today Clive?
Well today we’re not saving lives but watching a meeting about a woman objecting to a man in the women’s changing room.
Surely that can be resolved quickly and back to work?
No the hospital’s going to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds defending a man’s right to undress next to partially undressed women.
…

ED I asked Beth on 15 Jan to comm w me to commence the IX

NC But my Q is about this email, being a go betwn

ED I didnt think she was and I communicated directly with Beth

NC Look at yr IX planning doc

ED I completed it

NC Look at CR and alleged non-commun issues

I think that this (and the hotel comment) might be the most useful part about ED's evidence. Initially I thought her vagueness was no help. But actually on the stand and clearly frightened is writ large for all to see the consequences of the group think

ED Yes, we agreed this yesterday [resus and leaving AE]

NC The terms of ref [reads re CR] So zeroes in on one thing

ED Yes

NC But the alleged miscommunication are signif more important

ED we cld agree on the CR issue, and the allegation was things leading up to this

I get the impression ED is very out of her depth here and wouldn't be surprised if she ends up being the fall-guy for mismanaging the disciplinary process.

NC U didnt know CX were justified or not

ED That was reason for the IX

NC So 2 allegations: bullying and patient neglect due to bigotry and both needed IX

ED Yes,

NC So both of equal status?

ED WE only knew about CR and further allegs came out later

There is nothing so masculine as a man in a kilt.
It gives them a little (or sometimes a lot) more swagger.
It really turns the skirt = woman thing on its head.

ED WE only knew about CR and further allegs came out later

NC [find new document] A page of workforce policies, incl IX process. It says a pre IX stage [reads re immed action, risk assess, guide to SX, meeting w staff and offer support and letter] Did she get a letter

ED I met SP on 3 Jan and confirmed the SX in writing.

Yes, or if they threaten to cast him adrift if he doesn’t agree to settlement, I imagine that puts Fife at risk of a claim from him.

if I were Sandie I’m not sure my demands would make the case settleable. Not for money but the other aspects

I can't get past the priorities - nasty to me in CR...oh yeah and BTW now I think of it ...patient safety.

It's all looking rather a mess right from the start. but it fits with him adding in more things to bolster his victim status claims later and how vague he was about certain things.

ED And the pack was sent, incl stipulating the suspension

NC Looking at the suspension letter. SP is told alleged unwanted behaviour against another member of staff. Is very vague

ED Yes

NC You didnt discuss the 2 patient issues at the first mtg?

ED No

NC [reads re IX process] You didnt sent a template for statement to DU

ED No as I didnt progress the IX but asked Beth to put it in writing

NC But the official way is the template

ED That was to determine what I had to IX as hadnt gone down formal IX process at that point

It would be great for Sandie Peggie to get a clear victory in the ET but there's no guarantee she'll win and whatever the outcome, the whole process could end up in the Supreme Court in 5+ years' time.

In her shoes I'd be very open to settle on very reasonable terms. (Although that said I don't think the NHS could find themselves in a position to offer this.)