NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

I'm so pleased for SP - she's been such a heroine fighting this in silence against almost overwhelming odds and institutional capture, as we now can see.

Responding to a PP - I do think transideology threatens patient safety. In this case alone, we see accusations of mild avoidance by SP (TWANSPHOBIA!) were given much more weight than patient safety concerns and acted upon more promptly. Upton has said he'd ignore the need of a woman to have single sex care unless actively refused.

And staff are so in fear of the ideology and of committing wrongthink, they're prepared to perjure themselves in court as presumably - in their mind - the lesser of two bad options. ED clearly perjured herself - either that or she's unfit to practice as doesn't know the answer to facts about biology taught in GCSE Biology.

Wow!!

Because in the twisted world we now live in, it's always up to women to make way for men pretending to be women as Uptonogood is doing. It's never expected that men should BE KIND* to the man pretending to be a woman.

*The most misused phrase in the English language.

Yep, I've said this before.

Remember that Upton's fear was apparently that SP would make nefarious allegations against him. Upton has said this under oath.

This makes no sense. The timeline here matters.

If Upton really thought SP would make allegations, Upton would be trying to avoid SP to allow that to possibility arising. You certainly WOULD NOT be undressing in SP's presence if you thought that really was SP's plan. It would be deliberately putting yourself into a position which potentially put you at risk if you REALLY thought that was a possibility.

Kuran offers a plausible explanation of what happened to ED's knowledge in concert with the social psychology phenomenon of consistency and Lifton's 8 criteria of thought reform.

Preference falsification, according to the economist Timur Kuran, is the act of misrepresenting one’s wants under perceived social pressures. It happens frequently in everyday life, such as when we tell the host of a dinner party that we are enjoying the food when we actually find it bland. In Private Truths, Public Lies, Kuran argues convincingly that the phenomenon not only is ubiquitous but has huge social and political consequences…Kuran provides a unified theory of how preference falsification shapes collective decisions, orients structural change, sustains social stability, distorts human knowledge, and conceals political possibilities.

A common effect of preference falsification is the preservation of widely disliked structures. Another is the conferment of an aura of stability on structures vulnerable to sudden collapse…

In distorting public opinion, preference falsification also corrupts public discourse and, hence, human knowledge. So structures held in place by preference falsification may, if the condition lasts long enough, achieve increasingly genuine acceptance…

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

Sunstein on How Change Happens. He pulls together three phenomena which social scientists have studied in recent decades: preference falsification, variable thresholds for action, and group polarisation. If Sunstein is to be believed, together these are a cocktail for social shifts that are chaotic and fundamentally unpredictable:

https://80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/cass-sunstein-how-change-happens/

"Discussions yesterday confirm that the case will go 'part heard' at the end of today's final scheduled day. Proceedings are likely to be suspended until July. Esther Davidson's cross examination continues but no further witnesses will be called today"

🥰

This is beautiful

Which is why the hearing has spent a lot of time dissecting who did what when and where.

The hospital IX also asked that question but came down on the side of DU - possibly/allegedly because he was able to influence the decision making by being involved with the process far more than usually allowed. At the time they went with what he said at the hearing "Why would I make that up?". NC has put it to him that he had a lot to lose and that is why.

So it comes down to who is the most reliable witness. Who answers a direct question with a direct answer? Who remembers factual details with more/less certainty? Who sticks to the story or who adjusts things as time goes on? Who sticks to facts rather than feelings?

When DU was asked (maybe in the last session?) where he was standing when SP said a particular thing, he said "presumably I was" by the bench or similar. Given the shifting and slippery nature of everything that had come before, it was that one word that stood out to me. Presumably. Not literally or actually. Presumably. In other words that is what I would have to say to make the rest of my description make sense. It is the small things. I wonder if the panel noticed. I hope NC did

I take back what I said about longing for Trump to weigh in.
I hadn't thought it through and recognise the risks as PP have pointed out.

Thanks for the correction.

But he's wearing a skirt, that's bound to cause confusion in some quarters.

I think the legal term would be facilitating voyeurism and indecent exposure which if I'm not mistaken are crimes in themselves

The piper appears to be wearing a 'skirt', I wonder if he is too scared to use the men's loo or if he has worked out that people can actually tell he is a 'him' despite the absence of trousers.

Wonder if ED thinks the pipers chromosomes have changed.

It would be funny if the wind blew when ED walked past him.

She knew there’s a difference. All nurses do. We might not know the exact reference cut offs, I don’t know the difference between M and F troponin results but I don’t work in cardiology or ED but it’s written on the results form.

re a pregnancy test it would be requested as part of medical examination if needed.

Yes the baby colours too.(To be clearly seen from breast clinic)
‘Just saw this on Twitter:
https://x.com/unisonlibby/status/1890099296810537219?s=46&t=BRUxTjZ34agAPkVo-fi3zA

(see GC rebukes)

Love a man in a skirt, sorry kilt! (doesn't make him a woman though).

My understanding is that she did pass the problem up the chain, but the hospital structure meant that advice came back from a (not competent) DEI employee rather than a lawyer.

Leaving aside the nature of the claim against SP, KS's behaviour (prejudging the complaint and sharing feedback with Dr Upton before hearing from SP) indicates that nobody cared/knew about proper processes.

In those circumstances, ED would have needed existing expertise to contradict the advice she was being given.

The piper seems to be David Spiers who has been wonderfully vocal about women's rights and is basically the official piper for the cause of Women Won't Wheesht. He's fab.

Wonder if ED thinks the pipers chromosomes have changed.

There's going to be a lot of confused Scottish men after ED's testimony. Or not, as they'll all know it's total bollocks!

Another victory for a school worker in the news this time sacked for her views on radical transgender ideology in primary schools. Kristie Higg has won her legal battle on appeal. Another shero well done Kristie❤️

From TT

We're in and awaiting the J

Afaik there are no rules to say you must where underwear and no rules to say you can’t change them or remove them in the changing room. There doesn’t have to be because it’s single sex. They’ve opened to door to the changing room, and with it not just the door to voyeurism, but the door to indecent exposure. At my trust my designated changing room is a room with lockers and 2 loos in tiny cubicles and one sink but there are other changing rooms with showers where people will be fully naked. Often used by cyclists but people will shower at work if they get absolutely filthy or if they are on call and end up being in for ages. There are people for whom shower changing rooms are their designated room whether they shower at work or not. We also have a new “well-being centre” which is a small gym and a studio with fitness classes and there are showers in the changing rooms there. I’ve never seen anyone strip off completely in my non shower changing room - but tbh if I did I don’t feel it’s a thing I could actually complain about if I felt inclined as it is a changing room for changing in and there are legitimate reasons that someone may want to change their pants or take their bra off. I don’t think you can actually require anyone to wear pants (or bra) under their uniform either. I know some women who will work a shift that switches into on-call and when everything settles down they take their bra off. Idk but I imagine it’s universally done through the unhooking and pulling through the sleeve or down the front method but you couldn’t enforce it if someone wanted to take their top off. More then once someone has got covered in something and had to finish their shift in new scrubs with no pants on. I see plenty of patients (including outpatients who know they are coming the hospital - not a getting run over by a bus situation) who aren’t wearing pants even with jeans on. I find it odd but people are odd and it’s just not reasonable to say “Jane, Lisa and Amanda, if you bleed into your knickers or if someone voms on you or you are going straight out after work and don’t want vpl or are changing straight into jammies to drive home after your night shift then that’s fine, but not you, Paula, you can only partially change in the changing room.” Nobody is going to say that to Paula and if they did Paula would have a datix in in no time flat and could circumvent anyway by wearing those knickers you can see right through. Even sturdy sensible lady knickers don’t allow a cock and balls to be contained and you can’t mandate what type and size of knickers Paula wears. They can’t even tell Paula to fuck off back to the mens changing room let alone what to wear and if someone does complain about seeing Paula’s meat and two veg they will have a complaint of voyeurism against them and called “creepy” and “weird” and “genital obsessed”. There is no way KS et al and whoever else told DU they could use the ladies set down any ground rules about to what degree he could change. If he’s allowed in, he’s allowed to be as naked as he wants.

Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your view kilts are weighted (little weights sewn into the hem) so that they won't blow up in the wind

agreed - this sounds good until you think it through - I asked for my post saying something similar to be deleted!