NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

Maya in the Express:

"Enough is enough. Women should not have to keep bringing these cases. The Government should make clear that no means no: a man can change his name, grow his hair, wear a skirt, take hormones or have surgery. It does not give him the right to use women’s spaces or to force people to pretend he is a woman.
The Government is passing a new law to create a national framework for digital identity verification. It will enable anyone to use a phone app to prove facts about themselves, such as being over 18. Will this system back Dr Upton and turn his claim that he is “not male” into a government-backed “fact” to be brandished next time a female nurse says no?"

I am very worried about this digital identity law.

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/comment/sandie-peggies-bravery-shows-must-34675785

When you say piped, do you mean there were bagpipes?

I think the judge intimated y’day that DUs sex might be a relevant question to be determined. There’s a legal and a scientific answer to that, but at time of incident at least DU would not pass either test.

Why is it insulting if SP asks DU to leave the CR for her safety, when DU said they wouldn't use the male CR for his safety? (I've ditched trying to use the preferred pronouns here because otherwise the sentence makes no sense)

Today's TT feed

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1890336266614407533?t=jG95bSBCUwp6TCFM475olg&s=19

So is it still identifying as an Edinburgh tribunal?

(I could do these "jokes" till the cows come home.)

I've been re-reading JR's cross of SP and one thing that has struck me for the first time, if DU was keeping the notes before Christmas eve and had already started to sense that SP was uncomfortable with him being in the CR, then him starting to undress when it was just the two of them alone (which SP states and he denies) is even more chilling, intimidating and terrifying.

If you are in fear then all that says is the problem is even bigger than you initially might consider. It just shows it.

Its not ok whatever the reasoning.

Acting out of fear would be a result of significant mismanagement and a cultural problem.

Or to put it another way:
Institutional Level Misogyny.

I've repeated this upthread several times but I'm doing it for a reason to highlight the Institutional Level of Misogyny within the NHS.

Here's Bewilderness's Rules. Look at them and consider how many seem apply to NHS Fife which is being highlighted by this case:
1. Women are responsible for what men do.
2. Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3. Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4. Women’s opinions are violence against men, thus male violence against women is justified.
5. Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6. Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breastfeeding babies deserve punishment.
7. Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8. Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9. Men always know the “real reasons” for everything women do and say.
10. The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.
11. Whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men.
12. Women’s ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.
13. Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves.
14. Women have all the rights they need: The right to remain silent.
15. Men are the default human. Women are strange subhuman others.
16. Everyone owns and controls women’s bodies except the women themselves.

Yeah I get that but she didn’t have to chuck in the little digs about Sandie being “stern” as opposed to lovely caring doctor upton

that was her choice

You've really been through it with that hospital @WearyAuldWumman 💐Thank you for sharing your experiences here, it must have been unbelievably painful to do so x

Excellent question. Why is the NHS apparently decriminalising indecent exposure and voyeurism for a certain group of men? It does rather beg the question as to what special interests are behind all this?

Yep next door to old workplace. Almost makes me wish I still worked in that super woke shithole. Oh well, at least my trans supporting former cowbag manager will have to grind her teeth at all the support she can see for Sandie from her office windows!

Yes, a bagpiper, walking along with SP and NC and co walking behind him. Crowd was waiting at the entrance.

Well thats bloody brilliant

Because to do otherwise would be wrongthink, apparently

I just keep imagining the NHS Fife management saying "just do what Dr Upton wants or we'll end up in a massive Employment Tribunal for "twansphobiaaaa"

"He, sorry she, wants Sandie sacked because she's not safe"

"OK, well, she's just a nurse and a woman, doesn't matter"

Wonder how well they think these tactics are working out?

I suggest that the reason there's no proper paper trail of the allegations, investigation and subsequent disciplinary process is because they never expected Sandie to take them to court. ime, HR want every I dotted and T crossed in case it ends up in court - I'm astonished they've been so slack.

If you are going to suspend a nurse of 30 years experience for patient safety breaches, don't you think people will ask questions? Like how long has this been going on for, what happened, how have things changed?

I presume you mean it's a so-called 'Progress' flag, the original Pride flag had positive connotations for lesbians like me.
Massively overused🙄, I agree, but not anti-lesbian.

Fantastic, I hope there is video.

I saw this

https://x.com/Justabaker17/status/1890337483319116095

Not just decriminalising, but actively enabling.

I am still awaiting an explanation that makes sense as to why the Pride flag needed to be replaced with the 'Progress' one. The point of the rainbow, surely, is that it covers everyone.

After this morning's cross examination of ED the case will be adjourned until July - not sure why just yet ( all communications required?)

From TT

10.15am: We are still in the online waiting room waiting to be admitted to the hearing

https://x.com/Justabaker17/status/1890337483319116095?t=Ma_4WEPWLSECm6jqzLo8wg&s=19

It’s not about whether a trans-identifying man has had surgery, takes feminising drugs, or has a gender recognition certificate. Men retain their male chromosomes, however they ‘present’, and women in our country have a right to privacy, dignity and safety, away from male exhibitionists or voyeurs, or even men minding their own business. (I know that many loos in Europe are now apparently mixed sex, that it’s more of a norm. Would be interested to know how religious communities respond to this.)