NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

Agree with both Jasmine and Holly

Plus she happily accepted the judge's patronising "she's only a nurse...too difficult question for her....we need an expert"

I can't think of enough bad things to say about it all. 🤬🤬🤬

Though I do wonder how the whole exchange would have panned out if it had been a male nurse. I'm thinking of the Fockers 🤔

Trump was saying the same about this particular subject in 2016 - 2020, though not as strongly.

However between 2020 - 2024 we've seen ever increasing acts of lunacy because its been enabled by authority.

On this subject Trump has effectively been ahead of the curve and seen where there has been headed - just as many of us have - because he saw an opportunity with it precisely because so many from the left were busy trying to ignore the issue.

We've been saying on MN since at least 2018 that this scenario of political opportunitism was going to arise and that agreeing with the likes of Trump on this was being done here begrudgingly because of frustration - with this cavet of saying we dislike Trump.

So I would argue that agreeing on one subject has NEVER necessarily meant full on political support on this subject to ANYONE who has actually been paying attention to the development of where we are politically in the UK. We are NOT the US and we do have something of a more nuianced ongoing conversation on this subject and others despite political tribalism. Its just not as extreme political tribalism as in the US.

If idiots are too stupid to understand this, this is their failing rather than a statement about what someone political views may or may not be.

Anyone know if Trump has picked up on this yet? I'm not a Trump supporter but in this case I can't wait for him to weigh in.

There has been very late disclosure of documents by both respondents (and NC has asked for further searches and a 3rd respondent).

Last Friday JR said R1 (the hospital) was adamant that there was no formal investigation in Jan/Feb, but we are now having two days of evidence and cross examination of the person who sounded pretty confident that she was conducting it.

They still have many witnesses to call, including an expert in all things trans.

Hopefully they can narrow down a fortnite.

Another A&E:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c93lzygn3j1o

THIS is where the money is needed around the country - trying to create more space and have more nurses and doctors - not on validating some stupid man.

What a waste of time and money. He’s a bloke. Always will be a bloke. Shouldn’t be in the ladies changing room.

Me too ...

I don't want Trump to weigh in on this and then end up with Musk using it for his own political purposes and getting an online mob mobilised.

Breast Clinic ‘am under presently next door to big Unison building, you can see the large Pride (Men’s Rights to oppress Women) Flag from the waiting room windows.

And this is PRECISELY which need to come out in the wash because once its seen it changes the nature of the entire subject.

Again it comes down to challenging the concept of no debate and affirmation only and seeing that various levels of abuses of power can occur when you give a licence to forcing others to say black is white.

Pride flag strategicically placed by main entrance to deter any uppity Women.

Would that be a good thing or a bad thing though? It would be more ammo for the TRA side to paint her negatively and say "see? Trump supports her, she's obviously far right, blah blah blah, case closed". Fingers in ears, la-la-la.

Having said that, I do wonder if he's aware of the case!

Very much agree. I'm concerned that this could completely derail the tribunal.

I can see where you're coming from, but publicly admitting you're stupid and/or lying under oath in such a public manner just to hold onto your job is both repellent IMO and illegal (lu oath)

Maybe you are already all there with this thought - but yesterday Esther fluffed and obfuscated. Observers commented it wasn't impressive that she didn't seem to know the answers to medical questions. Others said how she seemed scared for her job or being accused of bigotry - just like many others.

However not seeming to be able to answer the medical questions... maybe more out of fear than professional incompetence?

Is this evidence that self-ID etc is a danger for patient care/medical treatment itself?

For example a self ID trans Man comes in and needs an X-ray before A&E treatment - is a medical professional transphobic if they do a pregancy test?

I believe (from random Aliexpress adverts!) that there are special garments available to displace and smooth out the contours of the male genitalia, when this effect is for any reason desired.

The thing is that in terms of personal behaviour Trump has done some pretty abhorrent things and gloated about doing so.

But in policy terms, he's better for women's and children's rights on single sex spaces and trans "medicine" (unevidenced unethical experimentation) than apparently the entire management of NHS Fife. He accepts and protects women having single sex spaces. Which will ultimately protect women and children from assault, voyeurism and rape. Dolatowski's victim would not have been attacked if Morrison's hadn't made all 'women's' toilets mixed sex. He was with some sort of care worker - no way he would have been allowed in the women's if it was single sex.

So all the moral high ground behaviour about Trump is transparently stupid. People aren't idiots. NHS Fife is coming across as a lot worse than Trump on women's human rights here. So gloating about someone 'wrongthinking' about Trump as they forced her to undress in front of a man isn't as great of a look as they obviously think. Of COURSE she prefers Trump - he protects women's rights to single sex toilets and changing rooms!!

If he is I bet Sandie will get royal treatment at Turnberry next time she visits 😂

Regarding surgery DrU was the one who commented about a woman who'd had a hysterectomy - we all know she's still a woman. It follows that we all know - regardless of removing bits of your body your sex remains the same. Own goal there Beth. I am also disgusted by ED, She was only in that role for 3 weeks. She could have said to her boss - this is way out of my area of expertise. but she didn't. She couldn't wait to call SP a witch. And now she doesn't know how to tell the difference between men and women. Seriously do they think we are that stupid.
Also as these threads have been in trending all week do we know how many people are reading them ?

I have been tempted to enable voting but decided against.

hang on....is this being held in Dundee not Edinburgh? From photos the outside looks very like my old workplace so either its the same building or next door...

Thanks @JasmineAllen @hollysmumma for reminding us not all medical staff are in this cult. The contempt for female privacy (not just from Fife but NHS England policies too in recent years) has really rocked my confidence in the NHS and left me very nervous about accessing care.

@KnottyAuty

These are the points that worry me as well (we have some shared concerns).

Do we risk a foetus to clammer to the beliefs that a woman is actually a male? Who is responsible for this foetus and are we really in a place now where we will risk someone suffering from lifelong implications due to a belief?

Sandie Peggie was piped into the tribunal this am, with a crowd cheering.

Its an Edinburgh tribunal that is being held in Dundee.

If you can't separate the TQIA+ from the LGB then all of these symbols should be removed from the workplace - cases like Peggie's show that they are now toxic