Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/02/2025 15:59

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
Jimmyneutronsforehead · 14/02/2025 08:19

Ok I've got 2 phones charged again ready to follow. Busy day ahead of me but I can't miss this if afterwards we've got to wait until July.

I appear to have woken up this morning with stress acne and I'm blaming the tribunal.

SmudgeHughes · 14/02/2025 08:20

Needspaceforlego · 14/02/2025 08:15

Definitely lots of policies will disappear without trace. No big fanfare just disappear in a puff of smoke.

What trans policy???

I suspect the public sector, Whitehall depts in partic, will be the last standing. Staffed by lots of young people, determined to ‘be kind’. And support for gender identity theory is strong in the Labour Party and the trade union movement.

The Scottish govt is also particularly captured.

Skyellaskerry · 14/02/2025 08:21

lifeturnsonadime · 14/02/2025 08:01

Yes either side, but in your scenario the Claimant's side, can make an application to add a witness. They would have to show that the relevance of the statement to the proceedings.

There are likely to be objections from the Respondent if this happens and it will be up to the Tribunal Judge to determine whether to call the new witness in accordance with the overriding objectives (to deal with the claim justly and at proportionate cost).

In terms of the merits of the Claimants case I'm not sure how much such a witness would add as ultimately it doesn't matter to her claim if no one else objected. She did and her position is that she was harassed as a result. Whether any one else felt uncomfortable doesn't really affect that.

I had a general question on an earlier thread, I’m curious whether in Scotland ET it is possible to subpoena witnesses, just wondering if you knew?

Another2Cats · 14/02/2025 08:22

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/02/2025 01:19

@anyolddinosaur it's not VAT that the Crowdfunder attracts. It's income tax.

It's more complicated than that. Crowd funding can attract both VAT and income tax depending on the circumstances.

For example, when Maya Forstater crowdfunded her case, she (like anyone else that crowdfunds a legal case) didn't get her hands on a single penny of the money.

In this situation, the money would be going directly to the solicitors and barrister. So it is the lawyers receiving the money that would have to account for VAT and income tax on the money that they received from the crowd funding.

The crowdfunding platform keep hold of the money and then send it directly to the lawyer nominated by the person who set up the crowdfunding.

So there would not be a separate tax bill for the person setting up the crowdfunding.
.

In the case of the crowdfunder that has been started to aid SP (and, apparently, there is also one for Dr U), my understanding is that a voluntary gift where the gifter expects nothing in return would not subject to income tax when received in a personal capacity.

Where the confusion comes is that people and companies sometimes use kickstarters when they are setting up a new business or a new product and they are asking people to back them and then they will provide something in return at a later date. In that situation, the money received is certainly income.

lifeturnsonadime · 14/02/2025 08:23

Skyellaskerry · 14/02/2025 08:21

I had a general question on an earlier thread, I’m curious whether in Scotland ET it is possible to subpoena witnesses, just wondering if you knew?

Yes a witness can be ordered to attend by an Employment Tribunal in Scotland, it's called a Witness Order though rather than a subpoena.

RedToothBrush · 14/02/2025 08:24

To expand on that it shows that concerns aren't just about sex offenders abusing the system here. It demonstrates real system issues with positive affirmation only.

It's also about respected individuals also being able to abuse the system to hold power over others in a way that's wholly unacceptable and that we should be as vigilant of this as we are for anything or anyone else.

Datun · 14/02/2025 08:26

FannyCann · 14/02/2025 08:18

I had to go out yesterday afternoon and I'm still trying to catch up, having read through TT and lots of twitter.

Thanks for all the brilliant contemporaneous commentary and fantastic thread management.

Just posting something I saw on X incase it's been missed by the eagle eyes on here about the people who sat behind NC causing her to ask the judge to order them to move.

x.com/quineofthenorth/status/1889968678424457615?s=46

'Spoiled brats charter'

Totally.

And in contrast Sandie looks like a grown-up, rational woman, hard working and experienced.

They're desperately trying to Karen her.

Judging by the media, more grown-ups are stepping back into the room and they're not having it

Shetlands · 14/02/2025 08:27

I'm just chuckling thinking of all the busy MumsNetters charging around this morning, throwing laundry and dishes into their washers, answering 50 emails a minute, racing through breakfast meetings, calling clients early, telling the boss they're WFH today, all so they can clear a few hours to glue themselves to court updates. 💐

JasmineAllen · 14/02/2025 08:29

FannyCann · 14/02/2025 08:18

I had to go out yesterday afternoon and I'm still trying to catch up, having read through TT and lots of twitter.

Thanks for all the brilliant contemporaneous commentary and fantastic thread management.

Just posting something I saw on X incase it's been missed by the eagle eyes on here about the people who sat behind NC causing her to ask the judge to order them to move.

x.com/quineofthenorth/status/1889968678424457615?s=46

I've been giving DUs posse the benefit of the doubt (there to support a friend etc) but refusing to move like that when asked politely and for a good reason is appalling behaviour as well as immature.

You could say they were doing an Upton 😂

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 08:30

MoleAtTheCounter · 14/02/2025 08:02

The BBC report of yesterday's sessions is titled "Trans doctor had the 'right' to use the women's room". No he didn't - he is a man in law and is excluded by the 1992 act. The report also mentioned Trump; of course it did - burn the witch.

On reflection that was something Esther did which was helpful.
How do you know SP had strong views and supported Trump?
She was on holiday and told us she'd stayed at the Trump hotel

I once toured the Cambridge mosque on a work visit.... and I've noticed no long term changes in my beliefs

HalfWomanHalfHobnob · 14/02/2025 08:33

Shetlands · 14/02/2025 08:27

I'm just chuckling thinking of all the busy MumsNetters charging around this morning, throwing laundry and dishes into their washers, answering 50 emails a minute, racing through breakfast meetings, calling clients early, telling the boss they're WFH today, all so they can clear a few hours to glue themselves to court updates. 💐

Sadly I have an actual, real-life meeting this morning so won't even be able to surreptitiously follow along!

ArabellaScott · 14/02/2025 08:33

Datun · 14/02/2025 08:26

'Spoiled brats charter'

Totally.

And in contrast Sandie looks like a grown-up, rational woman, hard working and experienced.

They're desperately trying to Karen her.

Judging by the media, more grown-ups are stepping back into the room and they're not having it

Edited

Yes, the trouble is these spoiled brats are fecking doctors!

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 14/02/2025 08:34

I feel like they're misconstruing the Trump comments. Although I don't know SP at all and she's entitled to her own beliefs, so maybe it's me misconstruing it.

I think many of us are relieved that under Trump it's been ordered to stop the medical transitions of minors. I suppose if I said this on a whim someone might also think I support Trump who is odious and has also done a lot of damage to women's reproductive rights and healthcare.

And I think it's a bit of a clutch to assume that if someone stays in a Trump hotel it's purely because they support Donald Trump.

Datun · 14/02/2025 08:35

ArabellaScott · 14/02/2025 08:33

Yes, the trouble is these spoiled brats are fecking doctors!

Yes, that is a bit worrying...

I'm putting it down to inexperience 🤞

WeaselCheeks · 14/02/2025 08:36

Caerulea · 14/02/2025 00:09

@Another2Cats i saw that when it dropped - absolutely delicious! But, this is what ppl are prepared to say for anonymous polling, not declare at work etc for fear of repercussions & association with the far right. Anonymously whispering your thoughts are very different to having the courage to challenge a man in the ladies changing room, alone & nearly a foot shorter...look what happens when you do.

Like I say - this is just my perspective from over a decade in a controversial health related field. A large part of it is you only need a few institutionally influential ppl to be captured or ideologically pre-disposed & they are able to ride roughshod over everyone else. They are also well connected & invested (in this case often have or know trans kids) so they can't back down.

Re Upton - there's not a chance in hell only one nurse took issue with his (intact!) presence in the women's changing room. Not a chance! So where are they? The guidelines have been written so no one can actually reasonably object, written by invested parties. We see the fallout of speaking up over & over, it's career suicide.

I've not been following the case blow by blow - has NC pointed out that DU is pre-op? Would have thought that would be a pretty solid blow - I think when most people are thinking "I'm ok with trans women in women's changing rooms", they're thinking of fully transitioned tw.

The idea of a woman of being confronted by a swinging meat and two veg would probably give even a lot of the "be kind" lot pause, because surely it's not particularly kind to expose unconsenting women to male genitalia, particularly in a setting where they may be getting undressed...

Datun · 14/02/2025 08:36

Also, the papers are all rebelling their arses off and calling him a man.

There's a caveat here and there, and the odd complaint to IPSO, but it feels like they are finally coming out from the dark, and blinking in the sunlight.

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 14/02/2025 08:37

Another2Cats · 14/02/2025 08:22

It's more complicated than that. Crowd funding can attract both VAT and income tax depending on the circumstances.

For example, when Maya Forstater crowdfunded her case, she (like anyone else that crowdfunds a legal case) didn't get her hands on a single penny of the money.

In this situation, the money would be going directly to the solicitors and barrister. So it is the lawyers receiving the money that would have to account for VAT and income tax on the money that they received from the crowd funding.

The crowdfunding platform keep hold of the money and then send it directly to the lawyer nominated by the person who set up the crowdfunding.

So there would not be a separate tax bill for the person setting up the crowdfunding.
.

In the case of the crowdfunder that has been started to aid SP (and, apparently, there is also one for Dr U), my understanding is that a voluntary gift where the gifter expects nothing in return would not subject to income tax when received in a personal capacity.

Where the confusion comes is that people and companies sometimes use kickstarters when they are setting up a new business or a new product and they are asking people to back them and then they will provide something in return at a later date. In that situation, the money received is certainly income.

My understanding is that the crowdfunder is specifically for Sandie, and if she chooses to dedicate it to charity then the gift would not attract tax.......

RethinkingLife · 14/02/2025 08:38

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 14/02/2025 08:34

I feel like they're misconstruing the Trump comments. Although I don't know SP at all and she's entitled to her own beliefs, so maybe it's me misconstruing it.

I think many of us are relieved that under Trump it's been ordered to stop the medical transitions of minors. I suppose if I said this on a whim someone might also think I support Trump who is odious and has also done a lot of damage to women's reproductive rights and healthcare.

And I think it's a bit of a clutch to assume that if someone stays in a Trump hotel it's purely because they support Donald Trump.

Agreed that there's almost wilful misunderstanding in some areas.

As noted several times, public sector and its workers have a generous discount for Trump hotels.

So much so that Police Federation Scotland hold conferences there. And the discounts and upgrades available to NHS workers are also impressive.

JasmineAllen · 14/02/2025 08:38

Shetlands · 14/02/2025 08:27

I'm just chuckling thinking of all the busy MumsNetters charging around this morning, throwing laundry and dishes into their washers, answering 50 emails a minute, racing through breakfast meetings, calling clients early, telling the boss they're WFH today, all so they can clear a few hours to glue themselves to court updates. 💐

I'm 'lucky' to be off work sick with flu. I feel really ill, but following this case is the highlight of my day.
Go SP, go NC, I'm in awe of both of you 🙂

Datun · 14/02/2025 08:38

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 14/02/2025 08:34

I feel like they're misconstruing the Trump comments. Although I don't know SP at all and she's entitled to her own beliefs, so maybe it's me misconstruing it.

I think many of us are relieved that under Trump it's been ordered to stop the medical transitions of minors. I suppose if I said this on a whim someone might also think I support Trump who is odious and has also done a lot of damage to women's reproductive rights and healthcare.

And I think it's a bit of a clutch to assume that if someone stays in a Trump hotel it's purely because they support Donald Trump.

Yes, if it was reported that they were outraged she even stayed in a trump hotel, it would have a lot more impact

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 14/02/2025 08:39

Shetlands · 14/02/2025 08:27

I'm just chuckling thinking of all the busy MumsNetters charging around this morning, throwing laundry and dishes into their washers, answering 50 emails a minute, racing through breakfast meetings, calling clients early, telling the boss they're WFH today, all so they can clear a few hours to glue themselves to court updates. 💐

I'm too busy catching up with all the threads on what I missed yesterday due to having to actually work to do any housework. Thankfully I'm off today so can keep up to date so long as dh leaves me in peace.
It's been a long hard battle but I think dh is finally coming around. He may not be her father but he's very definitely protective of my dd and the situation in schools has got through to him more than anything else. Live and let live is hard to maintain when you realize someone you feel that protective of is affected. Due to his own struggles it's been an understandable push to get him up the mountain I do think this ET is going to peak him finally.

nauticant · 14/02/2025 08:39

To think that there would have been a litigation strategy meeting in the NHS:

So, we'll defeat this application for Dr Upton to be a respondent and the whole proceedings will be in private, and in that way much of the risk will be mitigated.

OP posts:
WeaselCheeks · 14/02/2025 08:39

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 14/02/2025 08:34

I feel like they're misconstruing the Trump comments. Although I don't know SP at all and she's entitled to her own beliefs, so maybe it's me misconstruing it.

I think many of us are relieved that under Trump it's been ordered to stop the medical transitions of minors. I suppose if I said this on a whim someone might also think I support Trump who is odious and has also done a lot of damage to women's reproductive rights and healthcare.

And I think it's a bit of a clutch to assume that if someone stays in a Trump hotel it's purely because they support Donald Trump.

I think it doesn't matter. I think Trump is a rapist, sexual predator, racist, and incoherent fuckwit, and I think anyone who supports him is abhorrent. I still support their right not to be forced to share changing space with a penis, regardless of their views.

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 14/02/2025 08:41

WeaselCheeks · 14/02/2025 08:36

I've not been following the case blow by blow - has NC pointed out that DU is pre-op? Would have thought that would be a pretty solid blow - I think when most people are thinking "I'm ok with trans women in women's changing rooms", they're thinking of fully transitioned tw.

The idea of a woman of being confronted by a swinging meat and two veg would probably give even a lot of the "be kind" lot pause, because surely it's not particularly kind to expose unconsenting women to male genitalia, particularly in a setting where they may be getting undressed...

While we know DU is pre-op (or possibly like the vast majority of TW not planning to have the op) thanks to time scales etc we don't know he is pre-op because that is private medical information that can't be discussed.
The same applies to whether he has a GRC - the incidents with SP occurred when DU had only been transitioning for a year so he couldn't have fulfilled the 2 years needed for a GRC at that point. He may have one now but we can't ask and he won't tell us.

CheekySnake · 14/02/2025 08:42

ditalini · 13/02/2025 19:41

Again, this seems to be a fairly new belief.

First it was "brain sex".

Then it was "hormonal sex" which I think started doing the rounds a couple of years ago.

Now they're saying their "tiddy skittles" 🤢 (sorry) are literally, in the normal usage of that word, transforming their whole biological makeup.

And there's always handwaving about "science" and what we now know, but I genuinely think this is all activists bumping gums on various forums that then finds its way uncritically into tribunal hearings and mainstream media.

We are in Bizarro World.

When I read this, it makes me think of Arthur Corbett, who I remember reading somewhere had a very strong sexual interest not just in crossdressing, but in the process of a man changing himself to become a woman (obvs he's not, but you know what I mean). The process and the idea that sex can be changed/is changing is in itself a turn on. (Corbett was a frequenter of a club in Paris that catered to men with this particular interest)

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.