NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

Yes either side, but in your scenario the Claimant's side, can make an application to add a witness. They would have to show that the relevance of the statement to the proceedings.

There are likely to be objections from the Respondent if this happens and it will be up to the Tribunal Judge to determine whether to call the new witness in accordance with the overriding objectives (to deal with the claim justly and at proportionate cost).

In terms of the merits of the Claimants case I'm not sure how much such a witness would add as ultimately it doesn't matter to her claim if no one else objected. She did and her position is that she was harassed as a result. Whether any one else felt uncomfortable doesn't really affect that.

Brilliant. I thought it would be something like that but couldn’t find anything on crowdfunded to confirm it.

If anyone is in touch with the person who started it maybe they could add that note to the page?

I missed that! I thought it was closing in March. Thanks, that’s reassuring.

@WearyAuldWumman that's absolutely horrific.

Slightly off topic here, but as a Helen Joyce fan of several years now, I watched this interview this morning, it’s over a year old. If you need to pass an hour this is well worth a watch. I’ve seen lots and lots of Helen’s interviews but this one in particular seemed so relevant to the Peggie v Upton/Fife case in places that it could have been recorded yesterday.

If I had my way it would be mandatory that this is played at the end of the tribunal.

The BBC report of yesterday's sessions is titled "Trans doctor had the 'right' to use the women's room". No he didn't - he is a man in law and is excluded by the 1992 act. The report also mentioned Trump; of course it did - burn the witch.

Wims, all the actors you are thinking of playing Dr U are way too old! Needs to be someone much younger, with a slight build and delicate features, maybe someone like Timothy Chalomet ( sp?), or Andrew Garfield.

Johnny Flynn would make a good DU but, really, I'd rather he spends more time on making music than acting.

It's not my petition! Perhaps it was written hastily by a furious TERF...

I'd like to know, from someone with legal knowledge, whether it can be repealed, or whether it's better to push for amendment. I don't know whether it would be accepted for debate with the current wording.

Well certainly not after what this tribunal has revealed.

What might be more worthwhile for other women who objected to do, in my opinion, is to say that to your line manager and as far up the hierarchy of NHS Fife as you can reach. Even if Sandie wins, it doesn't follow that Fife's policy about changing rooms will change. However, if they lose, and by then they know that many women object to their self-ID changing room policy, then perhaps changing the policy might seem to them a useful face-saving move. They won't, though, if they can still think that only Sandie objected.

Yes I agree, it's time now for women to start formally objecting to EDI policies that removes single sex spaces.

It can be done neutrally by raising a written grievance , then employers can't feign ignorance that women don't care.

Edited to add: It doesn't even need to be a case that there is actually a male using the facilities, if the EDI scheme appears to allow for this you can raise concerns before the event.

Morning campers.

Is it VV today?

Still on ED!

No just ED finishing then procedural matters.

Finally caught up after ducking out yesterday!

I'm guessing that most people who object won't be up for doing anything formal, but even informal objections might be effective (especially, I mean, in the wake of an embarrassing defeat for them at this ET), provided that the people with power actually get to hear about them.

Let's not count our chickens, we don't know if this will be a defeat yet.

excellent. She's not sparing his blushes

This week, Dr Upton has already told the judge that when objections were first raised by Peggie about his presence in the changing room, he had to 'be brave' and 'pull on my big girl pants '.

I wonder if that phrase sounded good in his head. Because it looks totally cringe in the paper.

Definitely lots of policies will disappear without trace. No big fanfare just disappear in a puff of smoke.

What trans policy???

I wonder whether this could be raised as a hypothetical situation in the workplace.

Hypothetically, where would we stand as an employer if this happens to us? Hypothetically, how would we respond to an employee raising concerns about transwomen in our single sex areas?

I can’t stop thinking about his poor wife, apparently the person in one of the pictures holding his hand, the way he’s modelled his styling on hers.

Where's the popcorn emoji when I need it?!

I had to go out yesterday afternoon and I'm still trying to catch up, having read through TT and lots of twitter.

Thanks for all the brilliant contemporaneous commentary and fantastic thread management.

Just posting something I saw on X incase it's been missed by the eagle eyes on here about the people who sat behind NC causing her to ask the judge to order them to move.

x.com/quineofthenorth/status/1889968678424457615?s=46

If Sandy wins it does something crucial.

It says trans staff CAN and DO lie.
It says what they say should not be taken at face value because of the risk of exaggeration and vindictiveness.
It's says that coercion and manipulation by trans people in authority is happening.

That's HUGE in terms of thinking about affirmation only approaches and the impact on those very closest to someone trans.

There's been a number of people in this position with family members who have been saying this for sometime

This isn't just about the workplace, whether people realise this or not.

Of course, but now is the time to think about how to maximise the benefit if Sandie does win the case, and it's a fair bet there are a lot of NHS Fife employees paying attention and in a mood to do something. (The fact that it isn't obvious who will win is part of what underlies my suspicion that most won't be willing to do anything formal. )

Personally I think she's going to win, at the very least, with some of her claims against Fife, but IANAL, and we'll see. Either way, though, she is helping the tide to turn.