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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/02/2025 15:59

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

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35
LittleBigHead · 14/02/2025 06:05

Still catching up with this thread but @WearyAuldWumman that is a horror story. I'm so sorry.

Datun · 14/02/2025 06:09

ScreamingBeans · 14/02/2025 00:07

Been trying to catch up with the hearing and have been thinking about what a true horror this whole situation is.

Here is a man who was prepared to destroy the career of a nurse of 30 years. Which would have jeopardised her ability to make a living, pay her mortgage, affected her family, impacted in later years on her pension. He even toyed with the idea of whether he could have her arrested. All because she refused to comply with his demand that everyone around him facilitate his fantasy of being a woman.

It's actually staggering when you think about it. I have a feeling that in the distant future, he will be emblematic of transactivism. Because he's not an outlier. He embodies the ideology. He's the poster child for it.

One day we'll look back and marvel at how these men grabbed power and held it and wonder how the fuck we put up with it and why the majority didn't notice or didn't think it mattered that much.

It's a fucking horror show.

Here is a man who was prepared to destroy the career of a nurse of 30 years. Which would have jeopardised her ability to make a living, pay her mortgage, affected her family, impacted in later years on her pension. He even toyed with the idea of whether he could have her arrested. All because she refused to comply with his demand that everyone around him facilitate his fantasy of being a woman.

That's NC's closing argument right there.

👏

WellIwasaGiraffeonce · 14/02/2025 06:29

Datun · 14/02/2025 06:09

Here is a man who was prepared to destroy the career of a nurse of 30 years. Which would have jeopardised her ability to make a living, pay her mortgage, affected her family, impacted in later years on her pension. He even toyed with the idea of whether he could have her arrested. All because she refused to comply with his demand that everyone around him facilitate his fantasy of being a woman.

That's NC's closing argument right there.

👏

To sacrifice her on the alter of transactivism to fulfil male desires and delusions

RethinkingLife · 14/02/2025 06:35

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 01:39

It might be worth checking this because if we all “gifted” Sandie a tenner each out of our income then thats different to “income”.

any tax advisers on this thread?
it would be terrible to get the crowdfunded then end up with a massive tax bill!

SP had indicated that the crowdfunded money will be donated to a suitable charity. (Via a letter that her daughter posted on her behalf on X.)

Skyellaskerry · 14/02/2025 06:35

Could I suggest Peter Mullan for A (not sure which) role please!

Stickystickysticky · 14/02/2025 06:36

Here's more proof that men pretending to be women are so dangerous. A trans male college student moved into the female only dormitory, the college provided mixed sex dorms but this wasn't good enough for the trans student as he wanted to be in the female only dorm .
Thank goodness this mother fought against it.

Appalonia · 14/02/2025 06:38

Wims, all the actors you are thinking of playing Dr U are way too old! Needs to be someone much younger, with a slight build and delicate features, maybe someone like Timothy Chalomet ( sp?), or Andrew Garfield.

And maybe it's just me, but I think JR bears a striking resemblance to another lawyer, the ( fantastic, GC ) Sarah Phillamore?

RethinkingLife · 14/02/2025 06:43

RethinkingLife · 14/02/2025 06:35

SP had indicated that the crowdfunded money will be donated to a suitable charity. (Via a letter that her daughter posted on her behalf on X.)

Edited

This letter: https://x.com/nicoleepeggiee/status/1889995534888587309

x.com

https://x.com/nicoleepeggiee/status/1889995534888587309

HalfWomanHalfHobnob · 14/02/2025 06:46

Scout2016 · 14/02/2025 04:37

I have a legal query - given they already have to reconvene and delay is happening, if any women working at the hospital decided to come forward and say they weren't happy either, could they be incorporated somehow? Even just a written statement saying "yes I waited outside too because..."?

This is a really good question!

RethinkingLife · 14/02/2025 06:54

Appalonia · 14/02/2025 06:38

Wims, all the actors you are thinking of playing Dr U are way too old! Needs to be someone much younger, with a slight build and delicate features, maybe someone like Timothy Chalomet ( sp?), or Andrew Garfield.

And maybe it's just me, but I think JR bears a striking resemblance to another lawyer, the ( fantastic, GC ) Sarah Phillamore?

Why mis-represent. IRL DU is over 6ft tall and looks like a hockey goalie. The optics would be completely wrong.

MF in Daily Express:

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1890190588676636782

x.com

https://x.com/MForstater/status/1890190588676636782

Needmoresleep · 14/02/2025 06:55

Jan Moir in the Mail
https://archive.ph/8V1dq

short but good.

CesarSoubreyon · 14/02/2025 07:01

Skyellaskerry · 13/02/2025 18:23

Phew just caught up, that @nauticant for the amazing thread work and @ickky and everyone else as well!

I wonder how many DEI leads are busy quietly checking their transitioning in the workplace policies as you can guarantee that so many will state that the person is allowed to use the facilities they want (and sod everyone else). In all sorts of organisations both public and private. As a PP I think mentioned earlier these policies probably tend to be issued without any “launch”. How many women in these workplaces are quietly seething when they do spot them and read them, and, through fear, cannot say a word.

Hopefully the sunlight emitted by this case will allow more people to be able to challenge things.

My husband works for a huge corporate and when he checked yesterday their 'transitioning in the workplace' policy had disappeared, so I think you are right about this. Lots of big companies are going to be watching this case.

myplace · 14/02/2025 07:18

I’m disappointed so few signatures on the repeal petition.

I would have thought we could do better. I held off for various reasons but this case struck home that if he had a GRA things would have been considerably muddier, legally speaking.

Skyellaskerry · 14/02/2025 07:23

CesarSoubreyon · 14/02/2025 07:01

My husband works for a huge corporate and when he checked yesterday their 'transitioning in the workplace' policy had disappeared, so I think you are right about this. Lots of big companies are going to be watching this case.

That’s what I was thinking. I think that it’s also that say 5 + years ago there would have been fewer of us “peaked” - freely admit but to my now embarrassment that I would have just shrugged and “been kind” and all that. I’ve said so in FWR many times. I have people in my life who say they are surprised at my views, as I am a kind and pretty gentle soul …. 😢

So not only the DEI teams but ordinary workers in mundane, interesting, or fabulous jobs, including in some great workplaces that believed (ha!) they were doing the right thing, will be looking at their companies policies. Which, let’s face it, are not frequently used day to day. And will start to discuss more with colleagues, and there we go, next thing the “sandie” may ask their manager or log in a company suggestion scheme or whatever said company uses. This pack of cards starts coming down. Silver linings of this case.

Im not surprised at what your husband has found.

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 07:23

myplace · 14/02/2025 07:18

I’m disappointed so few signatures on the repeal petition.

I would have thought we could do better. I held off for various reasons but this case struck home that if he had a GRA things would have been considerably muddier, legally speaking.

Until you posted I wasn’t aware that there was a repeal petition. Where can that be found please?

NotAGentleReminder · 14/02/2025 07:25

WearyAuldWumman · 14/02/2025 00:25

They're scared.

I'm possibly outing myself with this, but what the heck.

About 3 yrs ago, I went to the Vic to have unexplained bleeding checked out. The woman gynae I was supposed to see was off. I was greeted by a man who told me that he was a consultant. Fair enough.

He'd give me a scan and - if he saw a polyp - would remove it. Okay...

I stressed that I was in my 60s and had never given birth. (3 very early miscarriages.)

To my shock, he started cutting without pain relief. During it, I asked him if he'd stick a scalpel up a penis with no pain relief.The staff in the corridor heard my screams. He finally stopped: "I can't get the one on the cervix."

He left. The female nurse gave me paper towels to clean myself up. My thighs were covered in blood. Blood on the couch. A puddle of blood on the floor.

I was own my own (recently widowed) and in shock. Cleaned myself, the couch and the floor.

Heard another nurse in the corridor speaking to my nurse: "Is she all right?"

My nurse came back in. "I've been discussing this with my colleagues. We don't think it's right..." but there was no intervention during it all. Obviously scared for their jobs.

Afterwards the doctor got me to sign some kind of consent form for a D&C. No idea whether it covered what he'd already done.

Drove home. Accidentally went through a red light. Made it home. Went to bed. Hallucinated that my husband came into the bedroom to check on me.

At the my next appointment, the female consultant gave me a D&C and polypectomy (several, including uterine) under GA at the QM.

Last year, the problem returned. Saw the female gynae - she was brilliant. Was passed to minor ops for a hysteroscopy and polypectomy. Was in terror...a male name was on the letter...but (thank God) it was a different male, an older chap - and he was brilliant. This time, it was a full operating theatre where all the other team members were women.

Local anaesthetic. No polyps found. Mirena coil inserted to prevent uterine cancer. It hurt a bit when the speculum went in, but otherwise pain free.

At QM, all the nurses seemed much happier and more relaxed. At the first procedure in the Vic the atmosphere was completely different.

This is dreadful. So sorry you went through that. Did the nurses advise you to make a complaint? That wouldn't have risked their jobs.

Redshoeblueshoe · 14/02/2025 07:27

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 07:23

Until you posted I wasn’t aware that there was a repeal petition. Where can that be found please?

On the petitions board.

myplace · 14/02/2025 07:30

@KnottyAuty search repeal the GRA and two come up. One has closed, the other is still open but needs a lot of signatures to get seen.

NotAGentleReminder · 14/02/2025 07:38

Needmoresleep · 14/02/2025 06:55

Jan Moir in the Mail
https://archive.ph/8V1dq

short but good.

Needs editing to say 'the introduction of the GRA in 2004', not 2010 - that was the Equality Act

WearyAuldWumman · 14/02/2025 07:46

NotAGentleReminder · 14/02/2025 07:25

This is dreadful. So sorry you went through that. Did the nurses advise you to make a complaint? That wouldn't have risked their jobs.

No. Just said that it was wrong.

anyolddinosaur · 14/02/2025 07:49

Comments about tax on gifts for Sandie are beginning to look less like ignorance and more like a campaign to stop donations.

Individuals receiving money from crowdfunding only have a potential tax liability if it is in the course of their business. Crowdfunding is often used by startups, sometimes by small traders, to raise investment funds.

Sandie receiving gifts for being a very brave woman will have no tax liability whatsoever. There is a potential for inheritance tax liability for the estates of donors if any die within 7 years - but donations are usually within the £250 that anyone can donate without IT applying. Larger donations made from income are also potentially exempt.

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 07:50

myplace · 14/02/2025 07:18

I’m disappointed so few signatures on the repeal petition.

I would have thought we could do better. I held off for various reasons but this case struck home that if he had a GRA things would have been considerably muddier, legally speaking.

Give it time. It's only been up a day or two, and it'll run for 6 months. I think it'll get there.

anyolddinosaur · 14/02/2025 07:51

@WearyAuldWumman I'd consider that assault - and complain even years later. The investigation would be harmed by the delay but you didnt give consent for that.

rebmacesrevda · 14/02/2025 07:52

anyolddinosaur · 14/02/2025 07:51

@WearyAuldWumman I'd consider that assault - and complain even years later. The investigation would be harmed by the delay but you didnt give consent for that.

Totally agree. I'd report directly to GMC and police, as I wouldn't trust the hospital to investigate properly.

anyolddinosaur · 14/02/2025 07:53

@rebmacesrevda A quick search shows only closed petitions, remind people to check the petitions board or search for Fully Repeal the Gender Recognition Act

It's so badly worded seems designed not to get support.

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