Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/02/2025 15:59

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 00:52

Lunde · 14/02/2025 00:51

I hate to break it to you but Shirley Henderson is 60 later this year! She was 40 the last time she played Moaning Myrtle!

oh that makes me feel old!

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 14/02/2025 00:52

Pete the Plumber - Joe Wilkinson?

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 00:54

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 14/02/2025 00:52

Pete the Plumber - Joe Wilkinson?

not totally what I expected from a manly man but - whatever floats your boat

GreySkirt · 14/02/2025 00:54

Benedict Cumberbatch (who I actually really like) as Upton? Reckon he could pull off some top grade patronising verbiage

Cate Blanchett as Naomi C 😍 (ironically married surname is Upton?)

Waitwhat23 · 14/02/2025 01:01

TheJoyousBee · 14/02/2025 00:21

Huge problem with the (deliberate) lack of clarity in the language. So many ppl I speak to think a transwoman is a woman who want to be a man!

That has been an entirely deliberate act by activists -

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/08/07/clarity-matters-how-placating-lobbyists-obscures-public-understanding-of-sex-and-gender/

Lunde · 14/02/2025 01:06

Perhaps we could cast the movie entirely from Harry Potter actors
(the late) Maggie Smith as NC (giving withering looks)
Rupert Grint/David Tennant as DU
Julie Waters as SP
Mark Williams as Mr SP
(late) Alan Rickman as the J
Shirley Henderson as JR
(late) Robbie Coltrane as Pete the plumber
Emma Thompson as ED

Needspaceforlego · 14/02/2025 01:08

murasaki · 13/02/2025 23:43

Upton is a bit of a hero in a way. He's peaking the nation in a way we haven't really seen before from a tribunal. He's in the champions league place just behind Bryson.

Some pink leggings and tattoos would be wonderful

Peregrina · 14/02/2025 01:18

The duolingo league is at the top of the page. But I stumped up good money to be a super user or whatever they call it so that might be why it shows. Otherwise I would have been demoted more times than I care to remember.

HootyMcBoobs · 14/02/2025 01:18

I would say Eddie Redmayne as DU, but I think he may have said he regrets playing a trans character in the past (Danish Girl) for some bollocky reason.

You know, cause as an actor you NEED to be the same as the person you are playing, the definition of "acting" has been changed along with everything else apparently....

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/02/2025 01:19

@anyolddinosaur it's not VAT that the Crowdfunder attracts. It's income tax.

SqueakyDinosaur · 14/02/2025 01:25

TheJoyousBee · 14/02/2025 00:21

Huge problem with the (deliberate) lack of clarity in the language. So many ppl I speak to think a transwoman is a woman who want to be a man!

I saw a suggestion on Twitter that (if you have run out of fucks to give) substituting the word "pretend" for the prefix "trans" clarifies everything nicely.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/02/2025 01:26

Can't wait to see the crime.dramas rewritten in light of this new evidence on DNA possibly being changed by haircuts and clothes.

"What did the lab say, Constable? I retire next week and must solve this last case before I go - I need a DNA match!"

"They couldn't say, Sir. It's wearing a hat."

"What!?"

"The DNA, Inspector. It's wearing a hat. And sunglasses. Could be anyone's."

"I've no time.for.your pranks, Constable. DNA doesn't wear hats."

"Does now, Sir. It was in the diversity course. DNA has rights, and can identify as wearing a hat. And if it does, we're not allowed to identify it."

HootyMcBoobs · 14/02/2025 01:30

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/02/2025 01:26

Can't wait to see the crime.dramas rewritten in light of this new evidence on DNA possibly being changed by haircuts and clothes.

"What did the lab say, Constable? I retire next week and must solve this last case before I go - I need a DNA match!"

"They couldn't say, Sir. It's wearing a hat."

"What!?"

"The DNA, Inspector. It's wearing a hat. And sunglasses. Could be anyone's."

"I've no time.for.your pranks, Constable. DNA doesn't wear hats."

"Does now, Sir. It was in the diversity course. DNA has rights, and can identify as wearing a hat. And if it does, we're not allowed to identify it."

Edited

What if it's wearing those glasses with the fake nose and moustache attached? And springy eyeballs?

nocoolnamesleft · 14/02/2025 01:30

HootyMcBoobs · 14/02/2025 01:30

What if it's wearing those glasses with the fake nose and moustache attached? And springy eyeballs?

Edited

Then it's just an innocent nun, out for a pleasure cruise.

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 01:39

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/02/2025 01:19

@anyolddinosaur it's not VAT that the Crowdfunder attracts. It's income tax.

It might be worth checking this because if we all “gifted” Sandie a tenner each out of our income then thats different to “income”.

any tax advisers on this thread?
it would be terrible to get the crowdfunded then end up with a massive tax bill!

Peregrina · 14/02/2025 01:42

I used to work for the Inland Revenue. It was before the days of on line giving so I can't talk about that but Prizes were not taxable. I suspect this would be similar.

WearyAuldWumman · 14/02/2025 01:43

HootyMcBoobs · 14/02/2025 01:18

I would say Eddie Redmayne as DU, but I think he may have said he regrets playing a trans character in the past (Danish Girl) for some bollocky reason.

You know, cause as an actor you NEED to be the same as the person you are playing, the definition of "acting" has been changed along with everything else apparently....

In that case: Izzard with CGI to make him look younger.

MysticCatLady · 14/02/2025 01:58

StellaAndCrow · 13/02/2025 22:28

I've just checked, and any threads related to the case have been deleted or frozen.

I think the threads got deleted because the admin team found out that they were mentioned here. Someone on an earlier thread said that their husband was a doctor with a doctors.net account and would have a look, that was probably the death of us being able to discuss this there. It's really unfortunate because these sorts of threads are good at 'peaking'. But once a forum like that gets leaky, they have to act.

Mountaingoat23 · 14/02/2025 02:46

KnottyAuty · 14/02/2025 00:43

Right I'm off to bed - here's the cast list with latest updates - excellent suggestions!

Dr Upton - nicholas hoult, Rupert Grint, David Tennant, Karla Sofia Gascon, Dana International, Christopher Eccleston, Daniel Radcliffe, Mackenzie Crook

Sandie Peggie (or other NHS staff yet to be introduced): Sharon Small, Anne Marie Duff, Ashley Jensen, Claire Grogan, Sarah Lancashire, Laura Main, Siobhan Redmond, Daniela Nardini, Shirley Henderson

Pete the Plumber - Brian Blessed (although he is neither bald nor burly), Danny Dyer

Naomi Cunningham - Maxine Peake, Glenn Close, Meryl Streep, Fiona Shaw, Kate Winslet? Suranne Jones… "The actress who got shagged on Concorde in Rivals" - Victoria Smurfit?

Jane Russell - Imelda Staunton, Frances Barber, Alison Steadman, Jennifer Saunders, Shirley Henderson, Katherine Parkinson, Emma Watson, Laura Linney

Esther -Sophie Thompson

Judge - Charles Dance

Julie Walters as Grannie Peggie

David Bradley as Grandad Peggie

Ricky Gervais as husband Peggie

Any others?
Snickers bar resus kid -
Missing child -
Jodie Foster? Saoirse Ronan? Lupita Nyong'o?

You need someone, maybe just an extra from Casualty, to play the dead patient in the KS dream sequence where SP was alleged to have stopped resuscitating them on a whim just because DU walked into the cubicle.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/02/2025 03:07

Bunpea · 13/02/2025 16:35

The BMJ is published by BMJ Publishing Group Ltd, which is wholly owned by the BMA. As we know, the BMA leadership is captured by TRA. So I think we know what we can expect of any of its publications.

It's editorially independent, and has been known to diverge on this matter.

Scout2016 · 14/02/2025 04:37

I have a legal query - given they already have to reconvene and delay is happening, if any women working at the hospital decided to come forward and say they weren't happy either, could they be incorporated somehow? Even just a written statement saying "yes I waited outside too because..."?

LittleBigHead · 14/02/2025 05:09

I'm far away from home at the moment and in a very different time zone, so am just trying to catch up quickly. I've been reading the fantastic Tribunal Tweets, and skim reading these MN threads.

But some bells are going off in my head: does anyone else remember a thread in here with a Mumsnetter asking about strategies for dealing with a newly-out trans-identified man who was sharing her change room ("I'm a woman"), even while talking about trying to conceive ie (still working that wopmanly penis of hers).

???

I read somewhere that DU was trying to have a baby with his partner ... But maybe the jetlag hallucinated that.

PinkPanther99 · 14/02/2025 05:28

LittleBigHead · 14/02/2025 05:09

I'm far away from home at the moment and in a very different time zone, so am just trying to catch up quickly. I've been reading the fantastic Tribunal Tweets, and skim reading these MN threads.

But some bells are going off in my head: does anyone else remember a thread in here with a Mumsnetter asking about strategies for dealing with a newly-out trans-identified man who was sharing her change room ("I'm a woman"), even while talking about trying to conceive ie (still working that wopmanly penis of hers).

???

I read somewhere that DU was trying to have a baby with his partner ... But maybe the jetlag hallucinated that.

Don't know about a Mumsnetter posting for advice about that, but the Darlington nurses' case includes trans identifying man using the women's changing room at the hospital, and it's reported that he talks about trying to get his girlfriend pregnant.

LittleBigHead · 14/02/2025 05:35

Ahhh thank you @PinkPanther99

So that TW knows what a woman is, actually.

Bellezabell · 14/02/2025 06:02

WearyAuldWumman · 14/02/2025 00:25

They're scared.

I'm possibly outing myself with this, but what the heck.

About 3 yrs ago, I went to the Vic to have unexplained bleeding checked out. The woman gynae I was supposed to see was off. I was greeted by a man who told me that he was a consultant. Fair enough.

He'd give me a scan and - if he saw a polyp - would remove it. Okay...

I stressed that I was in my 60s and had never given birth. (3 very early miscarriages.)

To my shock, he started cutting without pain relief. During it, I asked him if he'd stick a scalpel up a penis with no pain relief.The staff in the corridor heard my screams. He finally stopped: "I can't get the one on the cervix."

He left. The female nurse gave me paper towels to clean myself up. My thighs were covered in blood. Blood on the couch. A puddle of blood on the floor.

I was own my own (recently widowed) and in shock. Cleaned myself, the couch and the floor.

Heard another nurse in the corridor speaking to my nurse: "Is she all right?"

My nurse came back in. "I've been discussing this with my colleagues. We don't think it's right..." but there was no intervention during it all. Obviously scared for their jobs.

Afterwards the doctor got me to sign some kind of consent form for a D&C. No idea whether it covered what he'd already done.

Drove home. Accidentally went through a red light. Made it home. Went to bed. Hallucinated that my husband came into the bedroom to check on me.

At the my next appointment, the female consultant gave me a D&C and polypectomy (several, including uterine) under GA at the QM.

Last year, the problem returned. Saw the female gynae - she was brilliant. Was passed to minor ops for a hysteroscopy and polypectomy. Was in terror...a male name was on the letter...but (thank God) it was a different male, an older chap - and he was brilliant. This time, it was a full operating theatre where all the other team members were women.

Local anaesthetic. No polyps found. Mirena coil inserted to prevent uterine cancer. It hurt a bit when the speculum went in, but otherwise pain free.

At QM, all the nurses seemed much happier and more relaxed. At the first procedure in the Vic the atmosphere was completely different.

This is a HUGE deal with regards to informed consent, and you're fully within your rights to take it further, if you so wish (there's no time frame for complaints within NHS, 15 years after they done something horrific to me regarding the stillbirth of my baby I complained, they lied repeatedly and eventually I had mine upheld thought the scottish ombusman). I'm so sorry that happened to you, it makes me sp angry, and a lot of people don't realise how frequently things like this occur.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.