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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

1000 replies

nauticant · 13/02/2025 15:59

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

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35
HellonHeels · 13/02/2025 20:42

AnonMedic · 13/02/2025 20:19

It’s a thing.

The thread has been deleted though, which is interesting…

😱😱😱

rebmacesrevda · 13/02/2025 20:43

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2025 20:31

Honestly???

I actually think we've passed that point for a lot of people.

I am hearing people who are firmly centerists now saying they are so fed up of this shite, and that they agree with Trump on this. They qualify this by saying they otherwise disagree with Trump.

The point is that, the 'stigma and shame' of agreeing with 'The Baddie' has now gone, precisely because people are starting to recognise that there's 'Baddies' at both ends of the political spectrum and the dickheads pushing this have become as visable as a problem as the shite Trump spots.

Caught between dickheads, centrists are FINALLY coming to their senses and using their brain cells to look at the problem in front of them instead of the tribalism.

Which is progress at least. Unfortunately thats still not getting rid of the Pandemic of Idiots.

To illustrate your point, I'm a socialist, and I agree with Trump on this issue!

In the past I have voted Green, Labour, and SNP. Now I can't vote for any of them because they have betrayed women. Next election I might just stand outside the polling station, screaming at the sky.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 13/02/2025 20:48

I'd like to check my recollection of something I thought I'd seen but nobody's mentioning, re SP's suspension i.e. just after the timeframe being discussed today. Can anyone direct me to SP's evidence dealing with this point in time?

If they're continuing with ED tomorrow, maybe it'll come up then. Or maybe I got it wrong anyway.

Many thanks to all contributors to these threads.

Signalbox · 13/02/2025 20:50

NotMaroonButRaspberry · 13/02/2025 20:14

I just randomly searched some hospitals from Bristol down to Cornwall (must be all that thinking of holidays...)

They all say something like this -

"Where care requires admission to a single-sex ward, trans patients should be accommodated on a ward according to their gender identity; different facial, bodily or genital appearance should not be a bar to this"

This is Annex B. It's NHS England policy to allow men who identify as transgender or non-binary to chose where they are accommodated. In the NHS the word sex nearly always means self-identified gender.

motherofgodhaudyerwheesht · 13/02/2025 20:50

I appreciate this is a broad-ranging discussion prompted but not confined to the actual tribunal. I am also however, acutely aware that the application of the law is neither a personality contest or indeed a test of common sense, and the judge will be limited to adjudicating on the specific legal complaint i.e. whether the respondents NHS Fife and Dr Upton were guilty of sexual harassment or harassment related to a protected belief under s26 of the Equality Act 2010 regarding three incidents when Sandra Peggie shared a changing room with trans doctor Beth Upton.

To manage expectations, could those closest, most knowledgable here frame best possible direct ( and possibly indirect ) outcomes here? Given the judge is not going to smash down a gavel shouting this is all utter bollocks and madness? Its been touched on on early threads but I am aware many more have started following since then.

As I understand it the hospital could lawfully suspend pending investigation on receipt of a formal complaint regardless of merit but fault could/would lie in the subsequent handling? And that this case will be an important test of protected beliefs?

Does indirect success look like review of NHS complaints procedure, policy and provision of safe space (for female, male, transgender) in the face of 'it is othering if a transgender person cannot use women's space' assertions?

Or has the most significant event already happened by rejecting the respondents request for private proceedings, thus ensuring sunlight for the shoogly peg assertion that simply put appears to be "I am a woman if I say I am" and that this trumps others rights?

There is so much noise about Dr Uptons appearance and demeanour which may be understandable but I am less sure how legally relevant this is unless it goes to intent and to a defence that the harrassed was in fact the harrasser?

Ref for those catching up Upton was allowed to use the A&E changing room that is used by female doctors, nurses and auxiliaries to change in and out of uniform. Peggie describes three encounters in the female changing room where she felt embarrassed because of encountering the male doctor.
On Christmas Eve 2023, Peggie and Dr Upton exchanged words after Peggie alleged that Upton started to undress when they were alone together in the female changing room. Upton then made an official complaint about Peggie’s behaviour, saying it was bullying and a “hate incident”.
The hospital responded by placing Peggie on special leave and then suspending her pending a disciplinary investigation into her “alleged unwanted behaviours”. When she came back to work it refused to guarantee that Upton or other men with transgender identities would not be using the women’s facilities. It is believed that Upton is still being allowed to use the female-only changing room at his place of work. (summary from Sex Matters)

Pluvia · 13/02/2025 20:50

I’ve heard people who are supposed to be really clever parroting CCP is a TERF. It’s so insidious, once someone has the scarlet letter applied it’s impossible to refute.

Why on earth would anyone want to refute being labelled a terf? It's a badge to be worn with pride. We are on the right side of history, preventing the eugenicists from sterilising the lesbians and gays and autistic people, fighting for women's rights.

NotLikeACourt · 13/02/2025 20:51

ifIwerenotanandroid · 13/02/2025 20:48

I'd like to check my recollection of something I thought I'd seen but nobody's mentioning, re SP's suspension i.e. just after the timeframe being discussed today. Can anyone direct me to SP's evidence dealing with this point in time?

If they're continuing with ED tomorrow, maybe it'll come up then. Or maybe I got it wrong anyway.

Many thanks to all contributors to these threads.

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2025.02.03-230942/threadreaderapp.com/thread/1886405404239749304.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">SP testimony

search for 'susp' should help

rebmacesrevda · 13/02/2025 20:51

NotAGentleReminder · 13/02/2025 20:42

I taught mine this too but after being indoctrinated by this regressive ideology my DD only had her hair cut short after deciding she is a man.

It is SO regressive. We can all be whatever gender we like, but we don't have to define ourselves by it. It breaks my heart to hear about all the young people believing they need to alter themselves. It's such a warped idea of what "identity" means.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 13/02/2025 20:51

@NotLikeACourt Thanks

NebulousHog · 13/02/2025 20:52

Are there any ITU doctors / nurses on this thread? In critical care it's normal that where ever possible same sex care is provided (even though the units are usually mixed in terms of patient sex); does the gender woo woo impact this as well please?

I feel so sick to my stomach now that I may have be provided intimate care when in a coma by a man.

Can I find out?

NotLikeACourt · 13/02/2025 20:52

ifIwerenotanandroid · 13/02/2025 20:51

@NotLikeACourt Thanks

apols, didn't quite master linking...

NebulousHog · 13/02/2025 20:53

Thank you again everyone for leading, sharing, posting, critiquing, raging, questioning - and for all the updates.

I am going to drop out for the evening as I do feel internally very rattled suddenly.

Mountaingoat23 · 13/02/2025 20:54

Peregrina · 13/02/2025 16:24

Could it be that people like KS had already formed a dislike of the "stern" Sandie Peggie and were taking the opportunity to get rid of her from A & E. Not realising that someone with a reputation for being stern was not likely to take it all lying down.

I am speculating and if MN thinks that is wrong, they can withdraw my post.

I don't think we know very much at all yet, but I looked up the Clinical Fellow role that DU held and it appears KS leads that programme that brings in up to 18 registrar grade doctors each year, so I guess she has a strong interest in defending her cohort, whatever else is going on. https://apply.jobs.scot.nhs.uk/Job/JobDetail?JobId=180672

Also, on DU's GMC registration page, it lists Christopher Mckenna as the responsible doctor for DU's revalidation with GMC.

Christopher (also Chris if searching google) McKenna is the Medical Director for Fife, and seems to be v interactive with staff, and undertakes shifts at the Vic hospital, as well as being the executive director who signed off a partnership with St Andrews Medical School in March 2024 which was when DU was kicking off. https://medicine.st-andrews.ac.uk/news/medicine-comes-home-to-st-andrews/

So the class issues that NC has brought up, the fact that DU had friends in high places by virtue of those connections with KS and the Director, the general issue of nurses being treated as far more disposable than doctors, will probably also feature in the reasons that an incompetent NHS hospital and its Board just didn't bother to properly scrutinise the pitiful investigation of a nurse who was valuable to them for 30 years - until she wasn't.

Junior Clinical Fellow in Emergency Medicine:Victoria Hospital

https://apply.jobs.scot.nhs.uk/Job/JobDetail?JobId=180672

NotLikeACourt · 13/02/2025 20:55

If anyone was there or watching online, I'm still dying to know who did NC point to when asking ED about the hair

NC - if that man there grew his hair would it make him a woman?
ED - no
NC - if he shaved?

CriticalCondition · 13/02/2025 20:57

NebulousHog · 13/02/2025 19:25

@CriticalCondition

Is it true that any trust who are operating against / outside the law would not actually have liability cover?

I know with doctors as soon as something illegal happens there liability cover ceases. Ie. doctors who practice without a licence to practice currently held by the GMC then lose their indemnity / liability insurance.

Is it similar?

First I should make clear that I don't know anything about the nature or the terms of insurance cover held by health trusts or indeed if they have any at all. I have read somewhere in these many threads that they don't and any awards of compensation which they are liable to pay as the result of legal action are funded by public monies rather than insurance. I don't know.

The point of insurance is to cover liability. There are different kinds of liability and insurance may exclude cover for some of them. It depends on the terms of the policy. I can well believe that insurers won't provide cover for a doctor practising without a current licence. But 'something illegal' isn't a term you would find in any policy. Unsurprisingly, it's all in the fine print and it will depend on what that says.

Pluvia · 13/02/2025 20:58

Caerulea · 13/02/2025 20:22

We don't want it to. The involvement of that side of things will push centrist & leftists away even if they agree this is a farce. Tribalism is partly what's caused this

I don't think that's true. I'm a paid-up member of the Labour Party and a member of the newly launched Labour LGB and I and most of the other informed lefties I know support Trump's Gender Ideology stance — but nothing else. So does my GC Labour MP. I think Unison's move today will only speed up the exit of many women from the unions.

Mountaingoat23 · 13/02/2025 20:58

NotLikeACourt · 13/02/2025 20:55

If anyone was there or watching online, I'm still dying to know who did NC point to when asking ED about the hair

NC - if that man there grew his hair would it make him a woman?
ED - no
NC - if he shaved?

The judge surely? I don't think it would be fair to do anything other than punch up?😅

Caerulea · 13/02/2025 20:59

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2025 20:31

Honestly???

I actually think we've passed that point for a lot of people.

I am hearing people who are firmly centerists now saying they are so fed up of this shite, and that they agree with Trump on this. They qualify this by saying they otherwise disagree with Trump.

The point is that, the 'stigma and shame' of agreeing with 'The Baddie' has now gone, precisely because people are starting to recognise that there's 'Baddies' at both ends of the political spectrum and the dickheads pushing this have become as visable as a problem as the shite Trump spots.

Caught between dickheads, centrists are FINALLY coming to their senses and using their brain cells to look at the problem in front of them instead of the tribalism.

Which is progress at least. Unfortunately thats still not getting rid of the Pandemic of Idiots.

Unfortunately yes I'm certain, I've been there on another topic pitched against the Good Guys & the single biggest issue was they were hell bent on framing us as aligned with the Bad Guys (not politics) & that's on something that saves lives. That particular thing has been going on for over a decade & it's still the main argument against it - ideology mixed with tribalism is THE biggest hurdle to overcome.

Most ppl aren't involved in this enough to know the finer details, they just aren't. The low level exposure they get is in right vs left media so it's very much framed as right vs left issue. Eg - by following this topic on twitter means I get some serious right to far-right stuff thrown at me by the algorithm, that's how it works & it just entrenches ppl who think it's just some minor issue.

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2025 21:00

Pluvia · 13/02/2025 20:50

I’ve heard people who are supposed to be really clever parroting CCP is a TERF. It’s so insidious, once someone has the scarlet letter applied it’s impossible to refute.

Why on earth would anyone want to refute being labelled a terf? It's a badge to be worn with pride. We are on the right side of history, preventing the eugenicists from sterilising the lesbians and gays and autistic people, fighting for women's rights.

If its Terfy to point out that the design of every day things if its built for default human, its far too fucking big for most women, then really really I'm not arsed.

Invisible Women has been influential in recognising that short arsed women with tiny hands can't hold big phones. Or drive certain cars as easily.

DH has learnt from this and hasn't quite started to see things from my height but certainly is more understanding of how annoying it is to not have the right sized phone and to need a cushion to reach the sodding pedals and is making slightly different purchasing choices as a result.

Terf on.

Christ Almightly. And people have got OFFENDED by her???!

PeteReturns · 13/02/2025 21:01

“This is Annex B. It's NHS England policy to allow men who identify as transgender or non-binary to chose where they are accommodated. In the NHS the word sex nearly always means self-identified gender.”

How is this legal?
Will this case have any impact on this, assuming SP will win.

On the question of sex being relevant, and needing an expert witness to decide that, could NC request this, maybe even a dna test?

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2025 21:01

Caerulea · 13/02/2025 20:59

Unfortunately yes I'm certain, I've been there on another topic pitched against the Good Guys & the single biggest issue was they were hell bent on framing us as aligned with the Bad Guys (not politics) & that's on something that saves lives. That particular thing has been going on for over a decade & it's still the main argument against it - ideology mixed with tribalism is THE biggest hurdle to overcome.

Most ppl aren't involved in this enough to know the finer details, they just aren't. The low level exposure they get is in right vs left media so it's very much framed as right vs left issue. Eg - by following this topic on twitter means I get some serious right to far-right stuff thrown at me by the algorithm, that's how it works & it just entrenches ppl who think it's just some minor issue.

I really really disagree.

Theres a shift.

Literally had a conversation about this very subject of lunacy earlier today from unexpected sources.

Boiledbeetle · 13/02/2025 21:01

Got pulled away earlier and just caught up.

What a bloody shit show NHS Fife are!

Sandie never stood a chance. Not with the man in the changing room or bloody NHS Fife.

They have well and truly shat on women from a great height.

I wonder if any of those involved in the witch hunt feel any shame or remorse?

Caerulea · 13/02/2025 21:04

Pluvia · 13/02/2025 20:58

I don't think that's true. I'm a paid-up member of the Labour Party and a member of the newly launched Labour LGB and I and most of the other informed lefties I know support Trump's Gender Ideology stance — but nothing else. So does my GC Labour MP. I think Unison's move today will only speed up the exit of many women from the unions.

I don't knock you for that at all! From my pov his arguments are in bad faith cos he doesn't care about women in the same way Tommy Twatinson doesn't care about young girls unless the perpetrators are non-white. Don't want to go off topic in this thread, but ime the involvement of Trump & is ilk would be terrible for this.

Boiledbeetle · 13/02/2025 21:04

Sandie crowdfunder now over £32,000

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17
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