NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #17

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to continue for 2 weeks. However, it is going to overrun and there will be an adjournment with the hearing resuming in July (current best estimate). The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

However, as a result of problems with the livestreaming, apparently caused by a very large number of observers, remote public access to the hearing was suspended on Tuesday 11 February. It was suggested that it might be reinstated at some point but don't count on it.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16

When a was a ward manager, over 10 years ago we had a biologically male pt admitted for elective surgery.

They were post surgery and hormone treatment and were one of those rare individuals who were not demonstrably their biological sex.

They were marked as female on their medical notes and their was just one clinic note that referred to their gender reassignment surgery.

They were originally in a 4 bed bay. I hadn’t peaked at this point and was planning on just managing admissions carefully.

Then the trans patient’s partner came to visit…

They were obviously very new into their ‘journey’ and really hadn’t mastered heels or make up.

I think a higher power was on my side when I had an early discharge from a side room and offered to the trans patient which they happily accepted.

I think that was the GC start for me.

I think this is a sure bet.

She is pretty regularly denounced as a TERF for writing a book about a group of people she belongs to and not including a much smaller group that she does not belong to.

I’ve heard people who are supposed to be really clever parroting CCP is a TERF. It’s so insidious, once someone has the scarlet letter applied it’s impossible to refute.

Hello and welcome to this fast moving thread. The last day of this segment of hearing is tomorrow and yes they have had to extend the hearing.

I suggest you pick up all inky links to tribunal tweets substack for each hearing session. skip all our commentary for now. And get upfront tomorrow to keep up.

You can then go back at your leisure to understand the detail

hope that helps

I just randomly searched some hospitals from Bristol down to Cornwall (must be all that thinking of holidays...)

They all say something like this -

"Where care requires admission to a single-sex ward, trans patients should be accommodated on a ward according to their gender identity; different facial, bodily or genital appearance should not be a bar to this"

"Genital appearance". 🤦🏻‍♀️

It’s a thing.

The thread has been deleted though, which is interesting…

Commenting before I read the rest of the thread, but the mandatory “Civil Service Values” course, which everyone in the civil service has to complete annually, must have been using the same template as this as they also misrepresent the Equality Act using exactly the same terminology, though (as far as I’ve read) they don’t go into the explanation, but rather present it as if it’s fact.

I would like NC to ask Dr Searle and any other medical people how they deal with patients with other delusions, and why this one is so different. Might have been one for DU too, although he'd have droned through so many variables and permutations it would have been too painful.

We don't want it to. The involvement of that side of things will push centrist & leftists away even if they agree this is a farce. Tribalism is partly what's caused this

I've haven't read the entirety of these threads (so I apologise if I'm repeating a point that has already been made.

"an explicit policy like this... so it's Dr Upton's choice which changing room to use"

Any such policy would be unlawful. This is clearly stated in The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992.

There is a specific section that deals with the situation where a person needs to change into special clothing for the purpose of work. Basically, it says that employers must provide separate changing rooms for men and women.

It says:

Facilities for changing clothing
24.—(1) Suitable and sufficient facilities shall be provided for any person at work in the workplace to change clothing in all cases where—
(a)the person has to wear special clothing for the purpose of work; and
(b)the person can not, for reasons of health or propriety, be expected to change in another room.
(2) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), the facilities mentioned in that paragraph shall not be suitable unless they include separate facilities for, or separate use of facilities by, men and women where necessary for reasons of propriety and the facilities are easily accessible, of sufficient capacity and provided with seating.

Great thanks. By the time I've read 1 thread, another 2 have appeared!!
I'll watch the tribunal live tomorrow then catch up on everything else later.

Phew, just caught up again! I can hardly read along fast enough, never mind watch/read TT, analyse and go looking for links. These threads are such a valuable resource. Many thanks to @nauticant, @ickky and so many others.

It’s endemic in public services.

You might find that tricky.

Why?
Mmmm! Who could possibly have funded all the training.

@Another2Cats . You write:
"Basically, it says that employers must provide separate changing rooms for men and women."
True. But according to BU, BU is a woman, whose GMC registration record supports this. It's a Gordian knot.

Unfortunately, we're not able to watch live anymore (unless you're a journalist and have credentials), as there were too many people trying to access it this week.

Ahhh I've just read in the OP that remote viewing has been suspended. Nevermind, I'll just read instead

Honestly???

I actually think we've passed that point for a lot of people.

I am hearing people who are firmly centerists now saying they are so fed up of this shite, and that they agree with Trump on this. They qualify this by saying they otherwise disagree with Trump.

The point is that, the 'stigma and shame' of agreeing with 'The Baddie' has now gone, precisely because people are starting to recognise that there's 'Baddies' at both ends of the political spectrum and the dickheads pushing this have become as visable as a problem as the shite Trump spots.

Caught between dickheads, centrists are FINALLY coming to their senses and using their brain cells to look at the problem in front of them instead of the tribalism.

Which is progress at least. Unfortunately thats still not getting rid of the Pandemic of Idiots.

Thread no 16: Page 23 (today):
ickky 14:32
"J - qu of case is facts and law. Might be a necessary fact, what is sex of R2".

ickky 14:33
"JR - we need a skilled expert to deal with sex qu".
"J - so put that later. C's case is that R2 is male. It is a disputed qu, it's a mix of fact and law. That is being put against you, we are dealing with EQA".

[ @ickky YOU ARE A ⭐]

I don't know if I'm being over optimistic but I was really happy to hear this from the J because it indicated he is interested in facts, like sex, over feelings and will use facts to come to a decision.
He is right, the questions of any legal case, including this one are facts and the law.

Feelings are just background noise.

From the previous thread:

ickky · Today 14:11

ED - felt driven to unprof behaviour.
NC - jr was unprofessional, no reason to think SP unprof?
ED - no
NC - SP said not happy about DU encounter?
ED - yes
NC - she found it intimidating and embarrassing?
ED - that's what she said.
NC - reason to doubt?
ED- no
NC - did you?
ED - no

But she still stabbed Sandie in the back, calmly and cruelly. She knew it was bullshit and that's what she did, stroked BU's pathetic, fragile ego.

"JR - we need a skilled expert to deal with sex qu".

Is there a doctor in the house?

I taught mine this too but after being indoctrinated by this regressive ideology my DD only had her hair cut short after deciding she is a man.